Evans 2-man manual
 

Hi fellas,

Who has made the $69 investment on the manual and what are your thoughts?

It's not an investment; it's an expense.

Nothing else comes close. The Redbook and CCA manual both pale in comparison to its completeness.

Depends on how you look at it I guess.

;) ... That's just something that my dad says about stuff that's an expense rather than an investment. This was one of those things.

The Red Book is very good. So is the CCA Manual. The Jim Evans Manual (which I have perused, but not yet obtained) is truly outstanding. But to downgrade the other two to such a degree is not necessary or warranted, nor is it necessary to over-rate the Evans Manual in that manner.

Have not read the book but have attended week-end type clinics where Jim was one of the instructors so think I know what might be in the book

If you think that you learned everything Jim has to teach (even just about 2 umpire mechanics) from a weekend clinic, then you don't know Jim.

I have it... read it twice.

You learn every responsibility you have in every sort of situation (even if the text is sometimes repetitive from chapter to chapter, but hey, its not a novel!)

In fact, I kept it my car during the season so as soon as I got the door closed and the A/C on I could look something up if I wished (not always because it happened during my game, but because it COULD have)

If you want to learn how to work as a crew in non FED mechanics, get it.

If you are one of these FED guys who still covers 3rd on a triple and wants all coverage of line drives in the infield as PU, you may be less then thrilled:p

Exactly what I meant by "complete". Neither the Redbook, nor the CCA manual, which is more complete than the Redbook, come close in the totality of situations presented and "non situation" information.

My first read of the Evans manual reminded me of the what the 700 plus page JEA did for the rulebook.

I guess the bottom line is, yes it is worth a single game fee to have the most comprehensive umpiring guide available. With this topic, you spurred me to follow through and order it, Johnny, so I thank you. I guess I'll have no more spare time in the next couple of weeks after I get it, so I guess I thank you for that, too. ;)

Glad you made the decision on the "investment!" :-)

Just curious
 

If you went to pro school, was it worth the investment?

I was told by Evans that what is covered in the manual is "basically" what's covered in umpire school. I'm not saying nor did he say it replaces Umpire School by any means but for the guys who will never attend the Academy or any of his 1 week camps...this will be an excellent tool for training and development. The comments seem to support it. I would say that even though you attended the academy...a person may have finished at the bottom of the class and would also benefit from the manual...it's never bad to brush up and relearn/review concepts. It also helps to have an authorative document to support local training as well. That's my .02

When I went to the MLB camp that they held on the west coast, I became a better umpire from one minute to the next with some of the stuff those guys showed us. So I can only imagine how enlightening Jim Evans would be hands on. His book--whether or not it's a worthy substitute--is something I'm now looking forward to sinking my teeth into.

Thanks again for spurring me to buy it.

My pleasure...mine will be arriving soon as well.

I looked on Evans web site and did not see this manual for sale. Where might it be ordered from? Thanks in advance.

On the Evans site:

Jim Evans Academy of Professional Umpiring Jim Evans Training Systems

WOW...I had a chance last night to page through my manual and I have to say...wow...it is so thorough...I can't wait to actually sit down and try to digest some of this stuff.

it is "basically" what is taught at the school, with some other things thrown in as well. you have to keep in mind that what is taught at the schools can vary a bit each year as they are tailored to what PBUC wants. while jim may not agree with things that PBUC changes and tinkers with, he has to keep up to speed with them because the bottom line is that he is training guys that are trying to get to PBUC's evaluation course.

there is stuff in the book that jim believes in and would teach at school if it didn't differ from what PBUC wanted, and that is the stuff that i was referring to when i said there is "some other stuff thrown in there as well." while the book is fantastic in it's comprehensive coverage of the 2 man system, it could NEVER replace the learning experience that is attending the 5 week school. for those guys that have read the book already, imagine being able to go page by page through that book and have each thing demonstrated to you by the MiLB guys on jim's staff, then drilled on the field (you would likely get 2 or 3 reps, but you would SEE 100+ reps and be able to learn from others as they make mistakes or do things right) with their supervision and instruction, and then applied through game type situations.

that is what the 5 week school is all about. it starts with the very basic stuff and progresses through to the very difficult stuff, but each and every step is broken down, taught, demonstrated, and drilled...and each new step builds on the step before it. if you can afford both the personal and financial sacrifice it takes to attend the 5 week school, you will be an entirely different umpire upon completion. and that goes for all levels and ages. from the mouth (or fingers as the case may be) of a former instructor, i can tell you with absolute conviction that the staff at jimmy's has great respect for older umpires that attend the school with no aspirations of going to PBUC, and are simply there to better themselves as officials. every student gets the same training, same attention, and same level of commitment from the staff...whether they are there looking for a job or not.

that is all.

I can attest to that as a student of Jimmy's in '08. I was older, but still had aspirations** of PBUC. (**the English pronunciation of that word, in this context, is "dee-looo-shuns". The "aspirations" is silent.) I'm not really THAT old, but sure felt it as I looked around that room.

Anyway, I got treated the same as anyone else - a 'good job' when warranted, and a "boot up me", as Aussie friends would say, when needed. And was given the attention, commitment and feedback Tom speaks of in his posting.

And if the attaboys were based on pity, that's okay - they came from guys in the pro game, and it still felt good, so I'll take it. Does that make me needy? :D

That's pretty good.

You can also get it at this site for the same price:

Maximizing the Two-Umpire System ABUA Online Store

I think Jim also owns that site. correct?

correct

When you order the book, you might want to request that, for $70.00 that they send you a new book, or at least one that isn't already thrashed.

It's a great book. I can't wait to absorb it all. The condition in which it arrived makes it look like someone else already has.

Just call him or email and ask for a new one. Doesn't seem like that big of a deal. I don't know, but he seems like he'd be reasonable. Mine was not shredded by any means...but it was damaged in transit.

$69.95 for a $25.00 paperback, and they spend 12 cents to pack it.

Good business practices.

I think at some point, I will get it spiral bound...if/when I can wear it out. That's one thing I like about the J/R.

I received my $69.95 manual that was worth every penny and more, and of which there are no comparable manuals at any price, in pristine condition.

Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.

Professionalism in business practices is what anyone should expect when purchasing any exorbitantly priced product. It's part of the price you pay. Just not at Jim Evans' online store. The book is still great, irrespective of how unprofessionally handled the product and service was.

From my first contact with Jason until delivery, I received prompt, professional and courteous service and a product appropriately and fairly priced. I don't purchase exorbitantly priced items. I purchase items of value.

It always cracks me up whenever anyone prices something at a rate that will simply squelch sales of the product. If this book wasn't priced so exorbitantly, thousands more umpires would buy it. Thousands. Even used or thrashed copies like the one they sent me.

It took me until this week to unload that much, even though I was introduced to it sometime late last year. And I'm pretty loose with the change when it comes to umpiring. It's a truly outstanding publication; it's too bad most umpires will never buy it just because of the price.

I had a business school professor that called the practice that they're employing "strategic sales control."

You're biased.

Virtually no $70.00 paperback is "fairly priced." The information is uniquely valuable, but so is the information in a great many reasonably priced paperbacks.

And I did not deal with Jason or anyone; maybe that's why you get favorable treatment and online store customers get the scrap. I purchased it online and paid through PayPal to make it quick, safe and easy. The lack of professionalism was in the shoddy packing and shipping of the product, and possibly the sending of a used book to a customer paying full price for an exorbitantly priced new book. Either way, it was thrashed when I first touched it.

Fairly priced. What would a new hardcover version cost: $150.00?

Kevin, if you're so unhappy, make a phone call and ask for a new one.

I consider this an umpiring text book. The same sort of book you'd get if you went to attend these classes.

Its no different than if you were interested in religion and wanted to get a religion 101 textbook in leiu or to supplement a class. And those text books, yes, in their paperback format, run you about the same as this Evans book.

Jim just isn't selling a book here, he's selling his umpire knowledge and training system. No different than if you wanted to buy a scholar's knowledge on any other subject in acadamia...!

Neither you, nor your professor know the details to make such a judgement. Unless, of course you subscribe to a theory that all books of similar size and material should cost the same.

I had the pleasure of speaking with Jim prior the publication of his new manual. Pricing wasn't done willy-nilly. A survey was conducted of umpires, testing different price points. Additionally, the costs of different quantities of the first run were considered. Not to mention the cost, time and material that went into the writing and compilation.

As most marketing execs understand, lower pricing does not always result in a sufficient increase in sales to counter the reduction.

Also, Jim understands his market enough to realize the those umpires willing to pursue education and invest in materials to improve their craft, despite the internet, remains a small portion of the total number of umpires.

While you seem to portray yourself as an expert on everything that gets discussed, there are others who know what they are doing.

If you are unhappy, you have two choices. Fix the problem or continue whining.

Naw ... it's something that gets well-used after awhile, it's just that it's an insult to pay that much for something that is damaged.

It's a really detailed, well organized manual. Wow! Great stuff. Don't want to put it down long enough to send it back.


My second kid is now in year two of college and my daughter just graduated. They both attended high schools where I had to buy all their text books. I started buying overpriced paperback text books in 2001, and I'll be buying them for three more years at least.

And it's the first thing I thought of when I saw this late last year when it first came out ... just like you described! Another $70.00 college text book!

I'm not whining; I'm not speaking for myself (I gladly made the expense); and I'm not an expert. I'm speaking for the segment of the umpiring fraternity that would buy it if it were reasonably priced.

And Jim and his analysts would all make considerably more money, and more umpires across the land would benefit from this marvelous manual and its thorough and well-organized lessons. That's my educated guess, not an expert opinion.

But perhaps, just perhaps, Jim felt that he didn't want this info in to many hands because it would replace, in the minds of the consumer, the value of going to either 5 week camp or weekend camps in the summer...

Maybe he wasn't trying to replace the Red Book. Maybe he was just trying to make a pitch to serious umpires about his camp. Who knows. Its his buisness decision, and your consumer decision to buy it or not.

He doesn't tell you whether or not you should buy it at that price, perhaps you shouldn't tell him what price he should sell HIS possessions at.

Something we can agree upon.

But it's a well-educated guess, unlike yours: "As most marketing execs understand, lower pricing does not always result in a sufficient increase in sales to counter the reduction."

Oh, they do?? Well, look around you!

Now, in this case, one of us is wrong about whether Evans's book would enjoy greater sales and greater impact if it were priced reasonably. Why don't you take a guess who that is.

You guys are arguing different things. You are arguing "sales and impact," he is arguing "profit."

No one (I don't think) disputes that sales increase as the price decreases.

There's also the matter of the value words "priced reasonably." Some might think that $120 is "reasonable" for the product. Other's might think that $120 is high, but $80 is reasonable. You think that $80 is high, but $40 (or some such number) is reasonable. I think it would be reasonable for him to pay me $80 to read it.

It's not really any different from the discussion about the titanium masks. For you "spending a game check" to get the mask was worth it -- the price (or in this instance the price difference) was reasonable. For others it wasn't -- but you seemed to have a hard time understanding that (or at least that's how I interpreted / remember your posts). Now you seem to have a hard time understanding (again, my reading of your posts) how someone can view this purchase at this price as reasonable.

To be clear, I understand how / why you came to those conclusions for you and for your values. But, I also understand how others might come to a different conclusion on one or both items, for their values (and for where they are in their umpire career).

Oh, I know who that is.

The key word to those of us who ARE marketing executives is "always."

Often, a 50% reduction in price does not result in the doubling of sales, which would be required for revenue to stay the same. If this is to hard for you to understand, I have some reasonably priced basic marketing texts I could give you.

Again, unlike your opinion, these matters were studied and decisions were made based on facts.

Bob, where can I sign up for these games where one game check will pay for my titanium mask? I'll do 3 a day 7 days a week.:cool:

That's great. They guessed that pricing it at $70.00 was effective. You guess that you agree. As most marketing executives know, it's guesswork.

My guess is that they priced out more of the segment than they should have, and they are going to sell significantly fewer copies, and make significantly less money, strategically limiting sales. Look around you. Have you noticed how that same what-the-market-will-bear strategy has been working in other industries? I have.

It's okay; Evans doesn't need to sell very many books. And he won't

Either you can't read, or simply refuse to accept the fact there are others who know more than you do. No one is guessing but you.

Your knowledge of pricing is apparently based on what you see in commercials. Be sure to order now and get the paring knife for no extra charge.

No one said anything about "what the market would bear." A price study is far more than that and takes expenses, including production, promotion, distribution and other factors such as size of the target population and their demonstrated willingness to choose product over money into account. It is more than, "Gee, I bet if we lower the price thousands more would buy the product."

Umpires who visit sites such as this are not the norm in amateur umpiring. The majority of amateur umpires do not go to clinics, do not purchase study materials and do not post at umpire sites.

Lowering the price does not lower expenses and most, yes, most, products do not realize the significant increase in sales you estimate when prices are lowered.

When lowering a price by 50%, expense are not lowered and sales must double to avoid a drop in revenue. This manual is in its first and most expensive run. It is totally illogical and unreasonable to expect a deep discount of any publication in its first run.

I have been involved in marketing in the entertainment and industrial fields for over 20 years. I have my MBA. I am not guessing.

But I have to admit, I am entertained by your willingness to go on and on and continue to demonstrate that you are clueless at the same time. So, please, feel free to go on and on some more.

Please don't encourage him.

I don't have an MBA but I have a calculator. Let's say the book costs $20 to produce and sells for $70. If 1000 are sold the "profit" is $50,000. Revenue is $70,000, but revenue is not the goal, profit is the goal.

Let's say we cut the price in half, the book still costs $20 to produce and if twice as many people buy it due to half off price the Revenue is $70,000 and profit is $30,000. Sales would have to more than triple (3.3333 to be exact) to get the same profit for a price cut in half.

I also expect that the more books are produced the production costs are lowered, but production costs would have to be cut in half for half price reduction in purchase cost and corresponding doubling of purchases to result in same profit.

All these lessons in business and publishing ... why thank you! Now I know a lot!

... You often result to projecting and crude name-calling. This is no exception. Clueless? Me? Really?

Have you even seen this book? Can you honestly claim that it's a costly production? The stock; the printing; the editing; the illustrating? Really?

I fully understand your standpoint, because it's mine. But have you seen this book? The production was somewhat cut-rate. It did NOT cost $20.00 to produce. Not close, really. That's the initial reasoning behind my contending that it should be sold at a lower price---it's not a very high quality (or costly) publication.

I guess we should all be glad it's cheaply made or we'd all be paying $120.00 or so.

It was math lesson and a point about difference between revenue and profit, nothing more. I have not seen it.

Clueless = crude name calling?


And on and on and on he goes, when he stops, nobody knows.

Ooooohhhh, so it's not crude.

Okay.

I'll note that mine was shipped sans any problems...

If we want a math lesson, its 50/50 right now whether or not you had problems with the shipping. So u can just factor that in with what you would pay for it I suppose.

I think we'll just end this here.

The book is $80. You might or might not find $80 of value for what might or might not arrive in good or bad condition.