Would you ask for help?
 

Twins manager Ron Gardenhire questions HP umpire Larry Vanover that the ball hit is batter's foot, he was put out by the 1st basemen, he is asking very nicely. He then asked Vanover if he would ask 3rd base umpire Charlie Reliford for help and Vanover tells him 'NO" and then he throws his hat and goes crazy and gets thrown out of the game. Why do MLB umpires refuse to ask for help from crewmates? Replay shows that the ball did hit his foot and should had been a fould ball. Would you ask the 3rd base umpire for help on this play? I would.

As always video helps: Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | MIN@KC: Gardenhire gets thrown out for arguing a call - Video | twinsbaseball.com: Multimedia

It most every game that I have worked my partner and I have pre-gamed that if the BU sees the ball hit the batter in the box to kill the play immediately. I don't know if that is correct (good idea) or not, but if the crew has it set that way then Vanover wouldn't need to check with Reliford, because Reliford would have killed the play then.

I don't know how the announcers "know" that Reliford wants to help out on the call. It doesn't look like he standing there yelling, "Ask me, ask me, ask me!" but what's new when it comes to the TV guys.

That is one of those plays where if Reliford had seen it, he would have called it immediately. Training from H.S. to pro umpires now have this standard. Vanover probably told him that he didnt have to ask his partner because if he (Reliford or any other crew member) had seen it they would have called it.

To answer your question: yes, I would.

BUT:

1. I don't do MLB.
2. I have no idea what Gardenhire really said.
3. I do know that Gardenhire is a notorious PITA.

Why would you ask? You *know* that if *any crewmember* had seen the ball hit the foot, they would've already killed it. So, you *know* that they are not going to call the ball foul later, after the fact.

Are you doing it just so Gardenhire doesn't explode? Frankly, I don't think that's a good enough reason.

No, I would never, ever ask on this. Let him explode. I'll write the report.

--Rich

If any umpire sees the ball is foul, they should call it. So, I wouldn't go for help b/c I wouldn't have to. If my partner(s) saw it, then they would call it and I would already know it was foul.

No asking and see you later.

No help needed. The others should have called it if they saw it so why ask?

If the base guys had seen it, they would have called it. Asking for help is just an appeasement move, not a good idea at any level.

I agree with the other posters on here who said, "if he saw it he would've called it."

Why ask him, he already ruled?

agreed...or should I say RATIFIED!

If BU sees the ball hit the batter (and I mean 100%), he should call "TIME" only, and let PU decide if it was fair or foul.

if the ball hits the batter its just a dead ball.... why does it matter if it was fair or foul... if the batter is hit in or out of the box is the only variable to this situation where the plate umpire has to determine anything after the ball has been declared dead by the BU

If the coach asked in the proper fashion why not just go down to 3rd base and ask...if he says it didn't hit his foot or I didn't get a great look at it then you tell the manager and you look like you are approachable...if you don't ask you look like a harda$$! This would take 30 seconds and I think more times than not the manager would have greater respect for you for asking, he doesn't ask and now the manager goes nuts and gets thrown out and it takes another 5 minutes to get back to playing ball.

so you want to ask your partner for help on something he already didnt see or he would have called it. THAT sounds like the waste of time here. I bet you go for help on EVERYTHING... your approach is user friendly... but so is a doormat when its raining and muddy outside.

Because I am approachable. He approached me and I, in a very calm manner, reminded him that had U3 seen the ball he would've called it immediately.

Being approachable doesn't mean doing everything the coach wants. Being approachable doesn't mean getting help on every situation when asked.

If it means the coach feels he needs to go nuts and get run, well, that's on him. Doesn't mean I'm going to hand the poopy end of the stick to U3.

[QUOTE=kcg NC2Ablu;611597] bet you go for help on EVERYTHING... your approach is user friendly... QUOTE]

If I think going for help is the right thing to do or if it will help me defuse a potential situation with a coach/manager I will go "talk" to my partner.

[QUOTE=GoodwillRef;611602]And then when a subsequent crew I'm on is 100% sure of a call and the coach goes fishing for help, he'll say, "but GoodwillRef asked - he always asks."

Sorry, I go out of my way to be friendly and approachable, but ceding to requests like this do no good at all to the game.

If a coach wants to go, who am I to stop him?

I didn't say we need to get help on every situation...there are a handful of strange situations that IMO asking for help is beneficial for game management. I am thinking that some of us are scared to ask because we might get information we don't want to hear..."we made a mistake." We all make mistakes and bad calls, we are human.

I think you can still be approachable and not go to your partner even though coach asks nicely. Just because coach treats you like a human being, doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going to do everything he says. He comes unglued, I still may not ask.

I will reply as others have said "if my partner saw it foul" then he would've called it. I think that if the umpire doesn't follow this path, he (U3) gets baited into "changing his call" by the coach.

But Rich, even explaining that the BU would kill it if he saw anything isn't going to help. This same situation happened to me twice in a game on Sunday - once in the top and again in the bottom of the 5th. Each time the batter pounds one down in front of him. I'm blocked and don't see any contact, nor does my partner. In each case the B/R was thrown out at first and in each case the player was ejected before he made it back to his dugout.

After the first incident the manager asked me to get help. I explained that the BU would kill it right away if he saw anything. The manager accepted it but his player just kept on arguing.

Similar situation with the second one. Manager asked me to get help. I tell him that it wasn't an appealable play in the top of the inning and it's not appealable now. He's okay but his player drops an F-bomb.

Goodness, I have no problem overturning myself. I know I'm not perfect.

However, in this situation, I already know the answer before I even ask the question. We are trained as base umpires, if we are 100% sure that a ball hit the batter to give the plate umpire a second to get it himself and then, if not, to step in and call time and let the plate guy determine if the contact was in or out of the box.

To me, this is an opportunity to calmly explain that to the coach. "Ron, if another umpire had seen that hit the batter, he would've called it. It's what we do. It's what we've always done."

If Gardenhire (who is a knob) decides to explode after this, well, it's not my problem. Goodbye.

(The worst piece of umpiring last night, BTW, was overturning the PU's foul call in the CLE game. Wedge getting tossed was the right thing for him to do -- I would've gotten run, too.)

It worked with the right person, didn't it?

"[Coach's name], if he saw it hit his foot, he would have killed it. We have no need to ask for help on that, [coach's name]."

Period.

If there is something that can and should be discussed with a partner, I readily and willingly ask. Not on that kind of thing. They'll declare ownership of you if you cave like that.

You got me there! :D

The batter hitting the baqll off his foot, or near his foot, hardly qualifies as a strange situation.

I agree with the others -- explain the mechanic to the coach and then get back to the game (including removing whatever obstacles there are to getting back to the game).

At the professional level...... I am not going to my partner. At the college level, I would explain to the coach that if my partner(s) saw it off his foot, they would have called foul. Now if the coach keeps insisting on me getting help, I'm going to tell him " ok, I will get help, but you (coach) are going back to your dugout ( or coaching box )...and whatever we come up with, that's the way it's gonna be. You are not going to come back out and discuss it any further. I just got the coach back in the dugout. I want to keep these guys in the game as much as possible. Now if he doesnt like the conclusion we came up with and he comes back out.... I will warn him with the stop sign (hand) not to come out. If he continues...run um'. 90% of the time, they are cool. They just want you to get together. This tactic would never work in the PRO game....I would never even think about doin' in it there.

I just don't get the "keep them in the game at any costs" mentality at the college level. We already bend over backwards as much as possible. It's almost like those coaches just can't deal with somebody telling them "no."

No, don't ask. What you're really asking your partner is "are you not doing your job?" Like has been said, if partner is sure he saw that, he'll call it.

I had the same exact situation, I was BU. I did not kill the play, and PU came to me for appeasement when questioned by batter and then manager (after getting his batter out of the way).

I told him I had nothing, and was pretty sure of it as well.

When PU came out with nothing, who do you think they now yelled at??? Its easier if they just get pissed at "stubborn PU" he deals, then I move in if necessary to play rodeo clown. As it ended up, I had a player yelling across the field at me, me giving the stop sign, and the PU cleaning up the mess.

They're likely to get ticked either way. Might as well act like we know what we're doing from the start.

Announcers really should get some training on the game they are announcing.

Oh well...

Read slowly and try to keep up:

At MLB the mechanic is that the BU WILL kill the ball if he sees it hit the batter. The fact that the BU did not kill the ball means that he did not see it hit the batter. Why on earth should the PU ask a BU a question that has already been answered?

Any BU who comes to me on that is getting his butt chewed while he buys the beer after the game.

They're third party observers interpreting the players' actions. They don't know how to play, coach or umpire, and really shouldn't. Now, occasionally, you get a guy who's really a sharp baseball guy as a color man, but never does the play-by-play guy seem like an expert. Some of the sharpest baseball guys I have heard do games are Bob Brenly, Mike Krukow, Don Drysdale and Orel Hershiser. The sharpest pure baseball man/broadcaster I ever heard was the Angels color man in the late-80s, a guy named Joe Torre.

Clowns like Tim McCarver and Joe Morgan are obviously standouts due to their national profile. But some of the local guys (we have to sit through Mark Gubicza in So. California) are abominable. The most telling thing I ever heard said about Joe Morgan and his vaunted baseball knowledge is that he never even smelled a manager's job. He never even coached. Because he can't fool real players, only some fans. Same with McCarver.

It's a rare breed that knows every part of the game. Two guys I'm familiar with came close: Torre and Brenly (managers and catchers).

If there was ever a great retired umpire who could effectively broadcast color commentary, it would be an interesting thing to hear.

[QUOTE=GoodwillRef;611602]Then you are wrong. walking out to your partner is like hey coach Ill do anything for you . now that coach OWNS you he is going to expect that any time he asks you will go and now if you dont he will pitch a fit and you will probably try to keep him in the game when its your own self perpetuating friendly attitude that makes him go off like that.

I was working a DH at a D3 school about an hour from Madison. First game, my plate. R1/R2. Smash down the third base line, pretty much on the line. Fielded on backhand by F5. I point fair, he steps on third, throws to first, end of inning. Coach starts in - "no WAY that's fair"...on and on. I'm already halfway up the first base line, coach decides to join me. He continues on and on and on. I finally make it clear after he repeats himself a few times that he needs to get back to the dugout and he leaves, but not before stopping in front of his (pretty full bleachers) to pick up a bat, whereupon he starts screaming and demonstrating again. I eject him. He charges me. Partner plays rodeo clown.

Game 2, we get a rundown between first and second. They take about 3 more throws than necessary and F3 gets in the way without the ball, R1 slows dramatically to go around F3, I call obstruction, the OTHER coach comes out and almost gets ejected. I probably should've run him, but I really didn't want to run both head coaches from a DH, so he probably got a pass he didn't deserve.

Assignor was there during the obstruction. He called the next day and asked me if anyone would've argued had I not made the call. I told him "I don't know, but it was textbook obstruction during a rundown." He said he didn't think anyone would've argued had I not called it. I asked him whether I should let that guide how I called the game. Then he asked about the ejection in the first game. He asked if I hustled to the line and got a good look at the ball.

Now, this guy umpires and has for over 30 years. He knows EXACTLY when kind of a look the plate umpire gets on a rocket hit down the line. I told him -- as good a look as any plate umpire can get on that situation. My instinct was fair and that was the call. I asked him what kind of look the third base coach gets from his box. Then he asked again why I ejected the coach. I read from my ejection report word for word.

So I guess I see where the OP is coming from. I mean, I think one is expected to bend over backwards and do the splits to be accommodating to the teams around here even considering the fact that these coaches are on the bottom rung of college baseball thinking they're all the next Earl Weaver. And don't expect any backing for a situation. I was told flat out "don't expect that I'm going to back you cause you're the umpire."

So I quit working college baseball in the area and probably won't for quite some time. It's OK, really. It's only 2 months of baseball and it's nice not having someone beg me to work 1PM DH during the week when I'm working my day job. For $185 for 5-7 hours work for 18 innings. With no travel money. And yes, many of my HS games are far better played.

Thats another problem all together... you didnt have an umpire advocate for an assignor. This has been a growing problem in the sport because people are to afraid to stand up to someone and protect their umpires. I have been one to protect my umpires where I assign and people dont like it at first. However later on they begin to respect and understand it. I mean I wont defend a guy who has done something completely idiotic and admits to it or I find out from a thrid party how it went down. Bottom line I do some serious investigating when that kind of thing goes down and I defend my umpires rather than hang them out to dry. We get enough of that as part of the job

Umpire advocate? Shoot, this guy may as well say "I was an umpire, but I work for the coaches now."

I hear that.... I get that a little more with my college assignors than with hs and others

[QUOTE]That statement is tottaly absurd. Did you see the game the other night when a Foul call was changed to fair?

the umpires got together

2 yrs. ago Mets vs. Braves - Jose Reyes hit a sinking line drive to F7 that was ruled a catch (it was not) the umpires got together and the call was changed.

There are MANY MANY examples where MLB umpires ask for help.

The others have answered. The reason the PU didn't go for help because if anyone of his crew-mates saw the ball hit the batter they would have "killed it". Since they did not "kill the ball" no need to go to them.

Pete Booth

Sounds as if he DID say that: he just didn't use those words. ;)

And my response at the end of the season was "I quit." Since he will be there a long time, I guess I'll just have to be happy working all the HS baseball I could ever possibly want. None of which is more than an hour from home, either. :D

I agree totally Rich. I also quit calling college games several years ago because I also had an assisgnor who expected us to bend over and bow to the coaches.

I would not do it and he started cutting my schedule, so I just quit and went back to doing HS which in our area is better baseball anyway. (and the games are played at night so it doesn't affect my job)

When I was in TX, the coaches wanted us to come and tryout (do a scrimmage game) before we were allowed to call their games at certain schools. I told my assisgnor, I don't want to work at those schools (even if they were D1) simply because I'm not going to cater to a coach.

I'm sure there are many umpires who will "go along" with this philosophy just to be able to do the games, I'm sorry I just can't do that. My integrity is more important than trying to babysit college coaches who are making "way too much money".

Thanks
David

This is one of the main reasons I didn't jump ship in the early 90s when I had a chance to work college ball. My association lost the college games to an upstart association that used "collegiate" in their title. Our association prohibited dual-membership. You had to either stay with it, or burn your bridge with any HS ball. My assignor was (and still is) an umpire's umpire, who wouldn't take any crap off coaches, and in cases like yours would have backed you all the way. I did not want to go work for anyone else, because this guy always came to my defense with the area HS coaches.

I think this is a rule that should be changed. It's a difficult call to make, is missed (one way or the other) frequently, and no one can hit the ball off their foot intentionally to gain an advantage.

So, I think the rule should be that if the ball goes sharply and directly from the bat to the batter, the ball is in play the same as if it hadn't hit the batter (that is, it becomes fair or foul depending on what happens next), except the ball is no longer in flight.

That would be a brutal rule. Batter breaks his leg after the ball hit him and now is out at 1B.

That would be nothing but trouble. But, speeds up the game b/c the catcher just has to tag the runner now. No need to throw it. And, imagine how many more DPs would occur b/c the catcher would just tag HP and tag the runner who is lying on the ground in pain next to him.

There's lots of easy outs in baseball.

Rules are based on fairness, mostly.

It's unfair to make a temporarily disabled man be a runner. Take one off the foot and you're temporarily disabled.

So don't hit it off your foot. :shrug:

Seems akin to a let in tennis.

As I tell my teen age daughter, a little extreme. (tongue in cheek here now), I see lots of players laying on the ground after a batted ball hits them ...:rolleyes:

Thanks
David

You say extreme. An MLB player hit a ball off his shin or foot and fractured it several years ago. He was out for the rest of the year I believe. I can't remember his name but he was a former Braves player and went to the Indians I believe and that is where he did it. I can picture the face but not the name.

So, instead of applying it completely, it would have to be circumstantial. Who is faking and who is not? It would be a tough call.

Are you thinking of David Justice, by chance? He separated his shoulder at the beginning of his last season with Atlanta, then was traded to Cleveland along with Marquis Grissom.

No. After going through some old rosters, it was Jermaine Dye. He hit one off the inside of his leg/foot and fractured/broke something. He went down fast.

Come to think of it, Justice "went down fast" also after he left the Braves ... :D

Thanks
David

Did it hit his foot or no?

Just to set the record straight, David Justice's first year after being traded from the Braves to the Indians, 1997, he batted .329, hit 33 home runs with a .418 on-base percentage and a .596 slugging average. The Indians went to the World Series that year too. He had good years in 1998 and 1999, and in 2000 he batted .286, slugged .584, and hit 41 homers and had 118 RBI.

And even more spectacular than that, he was married to Halle Berry.

He did it in the playoffs while playing for the A's, I believe.