Set position stop
 

Question. In College and Fed I know a complete and discernable stop is required. I have also read that in the Pro game, a little leeway is given. Had an Indy pro game last night. Ex MLB pitcher on the mound. I am U3. A few times while in "C" I could have called a balk in the College or Fed game but left it alone as I have watched countless hours of MLB on TV and in person. He stopped. But not very long. Your thoughts on the difference?

He stopped, that's the entire requirement. If there was a problem the 3B coach would have been in your ear.

That was my thought. They're not shy. :)

I'd say you did the right thing by letting it go. If you thought the pitcher didn't come to a good stop because he was trying catch R1 flat footed and hence hold him on better than a balk should've run through mind. If you weren't sure that was the case because it was just the normally came set, as SoCal said, the 3B coach (probably manager too in Indy ball) would've given you his opinion.
Either way, next time, when you have the opportunity, after a batted ball, call time to 'check the ball' and discretely tell him to come to a 'good stop'. It'll let him know he's close to balking.

How long does a complete and discernible stop have to be? Even the pros have to do that. And, a "good stop" is a complete and discernible stop. Is it not? If he wasn't stopping, it is a balk but apparently the other team didn't think it was so it wasn't apparently.

I am not questioning whether or not you should have called it. I am questioning the definition of a "complete and discernible" stop. What determines that?

I have also worked games that ex MLB players have played. Sometimes because of thier pro experience they will try and use tactics that are borderline balks and as already stated a little reminder is all that is needed.
"Hey 15, give me a good stop so this 3B coach ain't all over my butt. Appreciate it." Never , ever had any other response than "Sure Blue".

Had a left -handed ex minor ball pitcher that had an excellent move to first. However all season long because of the two man system it was difficult to get a full look at how long he was hanging his right foot out there in the move to first, and it was always borderline on final placement. We would have conversations all the time about it and he would always just smile. I was at 1B for the League Championship game and balked him for the move that brought in the go ahead run. His only comment afterwards was "good call." Which is probably another topic here, but I found that the ex-pro pitchers usually gave you a lot more respect out there.

If you can see it, it's discernable. If you can't, it's not.

From watching the Mets-O's game last night with F-Rod pitching, I'd say they give alot of lee-way on the stop.

Not really. In OBR you don't have to stop with no runners on base.

K-Rod often doesn't stop with no runners on but ususlly has a pretty long stop with runners on.

Runners were on base! His stop was very borderline. (more of a change of direction)

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?t...d=bal&c_id=bal
Select NYM@Bal Huff's line drive single. (actually one of his better stops, but still borderline IMO)

If you ever watched Mariano Rivera's set, he has 3 "stops" before he actually comes set.

In that list of videos, there's a BAL double off the wall (against PHL) with R1 only that shows a great example of 4-man umpiring. Relatively close play at the plate -- U1 has rotated down and calls the runner safe.

I found it, although it wasn't easy.

Borderline, my a$$. In the "real world" this is clearly a no-stop balk. They simply don't call that in the Major Leagues anymore.

I can't get the video to load, but generally, with men on, K-Rod's stop comes before the downward movement of his glove which commits him (which I agree is clearly a change of direction only).

According to Evan's balk video -- the hands finish moving down before the leg begins moving up.

This is how I was taught way back when. Must have gotten that info from similar sources as Mr. Evans did.

Looks ok to me.

Thank you! I was afraid to say that, thought I might get jumped on!

I was watching Game 1 of the 1968 Series, and Bob Gibson balked constantly on the way to his 17-K masterpiece. He didn't need to throw too many pitches from the stretch, but he balked on virtually every one.

I'm seeing a lot of that double stop stuff. Watched it in the CWS. So far nobody is testing it by stealing on the first move after the first stop so if nobody complains then I guess it's not called.

Doubtful.

The requirement to stop wasn't added until 1950. At that time the rule required a stop of at least one second.

The one second part was removed in 1964.

Thus, in 1968 a change of direction was considerd to be a stop.
Gibson was legal.

The "discernable stop" wasn't added until 1988.

What do you mean, doubtful? I learned how to umpire from pro school grads, MiLB and MLB umpires. So I believe those would be similar to Jim Evans' sources, as he learned from professionals as well. You shouldn't make smart as$ comments when you don't know WTF you're talking about.

the no stop balk is generally only called in pro ball if the pitcher is gaining an advantage...meaning it is a running situation and the runner(s) would be put at a disadvantage by the picther not coming to a hard set. it is not a running situation when the bases are full, which was the case in the video referenced.

And what Ump wants to Balk in the winning run?

So because you "learned to umpire from proschool grads, etc" that means you had the sources Evans had? Nope. At best you may have learned from those who learned from him.

I know that the sources Jim relied on when formulating his interpretations didn't include anyone you had access to. That's not smart a$$, that's a fact.

probably not many of us, but we're interested in making the correct call, not necessarily when the violation occurs.

First off, I said "similar" sources, not "identical" sources. Learn to read. I didn't learn from people who learned from him, I learned LONG before Jim Evans even dreamed of having an umpire school or any balk video. The people I learned from are the people that Jim Evans worked with and went to umpire school with.

Secondly, I had access to Paul Runge, Doug Harvey and Mike Winters. I've also umpired with Mike and Ray DiMuro as well as Brian Runge, not to mention the tons of MiLB umpires I've had the pleasure of calling some games with. When I was coming up, our association had as guest speakers John Kibler, Ed Runge, Shag Crawford, Emmit Ashford, Eric Gregg and several other top-level officials. These people did not attend Jim Evans Umpire Academy.

Wow. Guest speakers. Imagine that.

Okay, exactly how long ago did you formulate your postion on this topic? Hmm? And with whom did you consult before finalizing your opinion? And was this before or after your stint in the majors?

Why are you being so disrespectful to me? I don't understand your reasoning.

I'll take your questions one at a time:

1. In 1986, when I started umpiring baseball (yes, the year Jim worked his 3rd World Series)
2. It was an instructed interpretation that all members learned together in bi-weekly classes which were (and still are) manditory.
3. I never said that I worked in the majors. I said I've worked with these umpires, and it was in fall games and tournaments during their off-seasons both before and after their minor league assignments.

And for as long as he has been a major league umpire, Mike Winters has been a classroom instructor in our association, and we were always invited to pick his brain on any subject.

Are you Sid Hartman? You seem to know a lot of people. (This is a small joke for MN people, but Sid has "close personal friends" everywhere, so others might get it too.)

It was a trick question....just testing your veracity

The rule didn't include the discernable stop which is what we are talking about here until 1988 and the interpretation regarding hands stopping before leg moving was presented at that time. Jim was consulted by the MLB rules committee for the rule interp.

This doesn't really tell me anything -- I started working HS sports in 1987 and any details about what happened what year before 2000 is all pretty fuzzy.

You mean the same Sid Hartman who knows that Minnesota teams don't lose games, the officials do? I doubt he knows so much as a beer-league softball umpire.

The politcally correct term is "jock sniffer".

Well, then it must have been 1988. I remember them making a big deal about it at the time. So, it was similar sources after all.

Then they just as quickly took the word "discernable" back out of the rule because Davidson and Company were balking everything in sight.