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UmpJM Thu Jun 18, 2009 08:00pm
"Rules question for you..."
 
Gentlemen,

I received the following e-mail from a colleague of mine about a week ago concerning a situation he had in his game.

Quote:
Rules question for you - . 16 year olds playing under fed rules.

Runner on second. Pitcher was a larger kid with a slight potbelly. From the stretch he came set with hands at his stomach. He took a deep breath before the delivery and his hands, which are against his stomach, move slightly. Third base coach screamed that’s a balk as the pitch is delivered. He started to argue the call with my partner on the field. He told them it’s not, and twice had to tell him to get back in the coaches box. After the inning the coach came to me behind the plate to question the ruling. He explained to me what he thought the problem was. I told him that I did not think it was a balk. The kid just breathed, it was not an exaggerated movement and there was no intent to deceive, so no balk. The coaches’ response was “so you are not going to enforce the rules”. I warned him that was not the path he wanted to take. I had asked him what he had, I told him what my ruling was, and that we needed to continue the game. Twice more he repeated his statement that I was not going to enforce the rules and twice more I warned him not to continue. He repeated it again a forth time as he tuned and walk away, and I ejected him from the game.

So my two questions for you; do you have balk in that situation, and would you have ejected the coach?
I've already spoken with him and shared my thoughts. Just thought I'd "throw this out there" to see what other people thought.

Discuss.

JM

MrUmpire Thu Jun 18, 2009 08:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM) (Post 609723)
Gentlemen,

I received the following e-mail from a colleague of mine about a week ago concerning a situation he had in his game.



I've already spoken with him and shared my thoughts. Just thought I'd "throw this out there" to see what other people thought.

Discuss.

JM

1. No balk.
2. Never let people see you eject a coach as he is walking away. He warned him too many times and missed a couple of good opportunities to dump him face to face. If the coach throws a line at you while walking away, say to him quietly, with no gestures, "You're gone coach, time to leave." When he turns around and says "WTF" Give him the big heave. (I need to credit my young second cousin, twice removed, who is working in the minors for this technique)

briancurtin Thu Jun 18, 2009 08:24pm
No balk.
Don't warn someone twice to get back in the box, then twice to not continue. Might as well eject him twice.

dash_riprock Thu Jun 18, 2009 08:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM) (Post 609723)
Gentlemen,

I received the following e-mail from a colleague of mine about a week ago concerning a situation he had in his game.



I've already spoken with him and shared my thoughts. Just thought I'd "throw this out there" to see what other people thought.

Discuss.

JM
Sounds like "Coffee Talk" with Linda Richman. I'll give you a topic: A foul tip is neither foul nor a tip. Discuss amongst yourselves.

I'm a little verklempt. What the pitcher should stop breathing for a farkakte baseball game? It's not a balk.

SanDiegoSteve Thu Jun 18, 2009 08:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dash_riprock (Post 609734)
Sounds like "Coffee Talk" with Linda Richman. I'll give you a topic: A foul tip is neither foul nor a tip. Discuss amongst yourselves.

I'm a little verklempt. What the pitcher should stop breathing for a farkakte baseball game? It's not a balk.
Mike would be very proud!;)

bossman72 Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:36pm
"Coach, you seriously want me to balk him for BREATHING?" (said in a very "Are you $hitting me?" tone)

"Well, he's moving his hands!"

"I'm not balking him for breathing, sorry." (said half chuckling, as in- it's humerous that he's actually asking for a balk on this)

"So you're not going to enforce the rules?"

"I'm not aware of the rule that says it's a balk for breathing, so I AM enforcing the rules properly." (walk away)

waltjp Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:37pm
No balk. Coach continues to argue his case after the warning - Buh bye.

ozzy6900 Fri Jun 19, 2009 06:55am
No balks for breathing!

Explain the call, then eject if the coach doesn't get it.

By the way, was this the manager? If an assistant, he would have been gone before any explanation. :cool:

mbyron Fri Jun 19, 2009 07:09am
Quote:
Runner on second. Pitcher was a larger kid with a slight potbelly. From the stretch he came set with hands at his stomach. He took a deep breath before the delivery and his hands, which are against his stomach, move slightly. Third base coach screamed that’s a balk as the pitch is delivered. He started to argue the call with my partner on the field. He told them it’s not, and twice had to tell him to get back in the coaches box. After the inning the coach came to me behind the plate to question the ruling. He explained to me what he thought the problem was. I told him that I did not think it was a balk. The kid just breathed, it was not an exaggerated movement and there was no intent to deceive, so no balk. The coaches’ response was “so you are not going to enforce the rules”. I warned him that was not the path he wanted to take. I had asked him what he had, I told him what my ruling was, and that we needed to continue the game. Twice more he repeated his statement that I was not going to enforce the rules and twice more I warned him not to continue. He repeated it again a forth time as he tuned and walk away, and I ejected him from the game.
Good call on the no-balk.

Bad regarding ejection. Depending on the overall game situation, I might have restricted him to the dugout for the part in red -- screaming during a pitch is outrageous.

In general, I follow the procedure others have mentioned:
1. Listen to his view/comment/question
2. Give him my ruling
3. Stop him when he begins to argue
4. Restrict him to the dugout if he continues
5. Eject if he persists beyond that.

I really like FED's intermediate penalty of restriction: sends approximately the same message as an ejection but without the paperwork!

swkansasref33 Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 609783)

I really like FED's intermediate penalty of restriction: sends approximately the same message as an ejection but without the paperwork!
what is FEDS restriction rule? i play college ball, so i dont do any high school baseball, an d dont have a fed rule book. post here or send a message please.

mbyron Tue Jun 23, 2009 06:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by swkansasref33 (Post 610295)
what is FEDS restriction rule? i play college ball, so i dont do any high school baseball, an d dont have a fed rule book. post here or send a message please.
In situations where an umpire could eject a coach, he may instead restrict the coach to the dugout. Coach has to sit in there, but may continue to coach from the confines of the dugout.

Tends to take the piss out of 'em. In my state, an ejection wins a $100 fine from the state. A second EJ in one season wins the fine plus an expense-paid trip to OHSAA in Columbus.

archangel Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 610310)
In situations where an umpire could eject a coach, he may instead restrict the coach to the dugout. Coach has to sit in there, but may continue to coach from the confines of the dugout.

Tends to take the piss out of 'em. In my state, an ejection wins a $100 fine from the state. .........
In addition, in Ohio, the coach has to take a required online "anger mngmnt type" course, which I heard was about $50.00

ManInBlue Tue Jun 23, 2009 04:21pm
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that a violation of the balk rule was a judgement call. The rule states what he can, or can't, do but whether or not he does, or does not, do them is our judgement. We don't discuss judgements.

It was my judgement that he was breathing...no rule against breathing...buh-bye

In MS it's a $250 fine for HS coach to get dumped. The dug out gets the point across w/o the fine.

asdf Tue Jun 23, 2009 06:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by archangel (Post 610358)
In addition, in Ohio, the coach has to take a required online "anger mngmnt type" course, which I heard was about $50.00
You forgot to add that their mail, phone calls and text messages are monitored for 1 year after the offense......:rolleyes:

For the record, the on-line course is a "Principles of Coaching" course and the cost is $35.00.


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