A.D. problems
I had a freshman doubleheader today. Rain came in the 2nd inning and I suspended play in the bottom of the third because it was getting too wet and the pitcher was starting to have footing issues. Anyway, the field was still salvageable if the rain stopped soon, so of course I decided to wait for awhile to see what happened. The Athletic Director for the home school was there (which almost never happens), and he came up to me as the players were coming off the field and told me that he was calling the game. I told him that we were going to wait for a few minutes to see how the weather played out and that if we could continue we would. He then told me that he was the A.D. and he was calling the game. I told him that once the game starts, it isn't his call, it's mine and we were going to wait. He mumbled something and turned away from me, then went over and started to complain about me to the coaches. We waited about ten minutes, it was still raining and the field was beginning to puddle, so I called the game.
I know that I was correct that the UIC is the one who decides to call the game once it has started. Should I have just avoided the confrontation and let him dictate when the game was called, since I was about 99% sure that I was going to have to call it eventually anyway? I got the feeling he wanted to get out of there because it was "only a freshman game." I'm sure he wouldn't have tried to pull that during a varsity contest. It has always been my opinion that every effort should be made to try and get the game in if possible. Also, would you guys report this to your league assignor or would that be making a mountain out of a molehill? |
IowaMike,
I doubt that I would get in a "pissing contest" with an A.D. over this, though by rule you are technically correct. Some fights are worth taking on & some aren't. To me, this falls in the "aren't" category. On the other hand, were he to insist that a game continue when I judged that the conditions were "not suitable", I would prevail. JM |
If check is in hand, I'm out of there before he changes his mind......:D
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yep, if the AD calls it it's done...in MN for FED anyway, district administration shares jurisdiction with the officials once the game starts.
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You're probably right. I wasn't really looking for a pissing contest, but I guess the fact that I thought there might be a chance to play plus the disrespectful way he approached me led me to do what I did. I felt afterwards that the best thing would have been to just call it. If the coaches wanted to complain, they could complain to him. By the way, since it was called during the first game of a doubleheader, I will only get my fee for the first game, thus the desire on my part to get both games in if possible. |
Mike,
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JM |
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Mike if you're absolutely wanting to take on this fight, contact your assigner or Roger. I personally wouldn't worry about it. I know how the AD's seem to be either completely absent or in the way...
-Josh |
True story.
Went to a HS Varsity game and was told by the AD that the game was changed to a double header. Strange, because it was a 4:30 start and the field barley had lines , let alone lights. The AD said it was cleared with the district because the weather was supposed to be bad the next day. We would recieve doulble pay, which at that time was $90.00 per game each. Then the AD and coach stated that this was the bad news? Because of a school banquet that night that they were only going to play 2-3 inning games because the had to leave by 6:30. (Now this was a team that won an average on one, maybe trwo games a year). My partner said he would do the dish both games to save time and all I said was "Thank you Jesus." I used to work with a gentlemen that would get rattled about the most trivial of things in a game. I would always tell him to bite his tongue. put his hand in his pocket and feel trhe money and smile. |
So you have inclement weather and a field going bad. The AD is calling the game for you. Whatever his reason is, let's face facts. If you go against him and wait, then someone gets hurt, who do you think will take the fall?
Best advice - if the AD wants to end it, end it! Just make sure that you are paid the full price for the game. |
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We got through the top of the 7th and the home team was down by 3-4 runs. It was marginal, but since I played the top half I figured that I'd give it my best shot and maybe we'd get three quick outs. Home coach (losing, mind you) came to me and said "it's awfully dark, don't you think?" I was, in a word, confused. I know the state doesn't have an adaptation to this and if I called the game the home team would lose (it was a 3-4 run leading heading into the top of the inning). In a moment of stupidity I mentioned this to the coach. He came back with "no it wouldn't be over, it would be suspended. I've been coaching for [blah, blah, blah]." It was my ticket. The losing coach wanted it ended and he thought he was smarter than me, so I ended it. By this point it wasn't very light out anyway. When I talked to the commissioner the next day, I asked him if he'd call the home coach and remind him that the game was official and that they lost. Of course this went up the chain to the state office, who verified this right away. Wonder if the coach learned anything from this. Probably my fault. |
If the AD calls the game, im out of here, im not asking anymore questions...LOL i give to chits if he calls it or not.....
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The umpire may "own" the game but the AD "owns" the field and he's the boss of one of the coaches. If he says the field is now closed - guess what?
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You get paid a FULL game Fee so I really do not understand your problem. Here you get to go home early and now you want to get into a pi***** match with AD. Not good for your HS career. I had a situation similar to another poster in that the game started at 4:30 PM. around 5:45 the HC comes over to me and says Pete we have the field until 6 PM and then we have to leave. I said you mean no new inning shall start to which he replied NO 6 PM Drop Dead Time no matter where we are. It was not a good varsity school so I was doing the game solo ( I know most varsity games always have 2 but believe me when I tell you this team was that bad) 6 PM the game stops and I go home a Fee and 1/2 richer after 1hr. 30 minutes work. It will even out so when you get a chance to go home early - take it. No sense in getting into a pi***** match with an AD and in your case it made absolutely no sense. Pete Booth |
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If the visiting team is OK with it, I couldn't see myself getting involved at all. Pocket cash, leave. However, the visiting team may not be thrilled with the idea of having to drive to a game and then be told by the home team that the game is now over. Isn't that why umpires have jurisdiction once the game starts?
That said, I probably wouldn't push it. I *might* file the report with the state or the conference commissioner (assignor) if I felt it necessary. |
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This isn't the big leagues!! Bang the game. Screw the visitors. Take the money. Go home early. If its unplayable field, then what can you do about it?? Play big dick / small dick with the AD??? Totally not worth it. Learn from this and move on! :) |
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I find it amazing that some people give it the whole "every game is important" attitude and at the same time other say "screw it - it's only a freshman game." |
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What I find odd is those who say "All of this over a Feshman game?" Why send a reply than if you are not concerned with a Freshman game?
Is every game important? Yes it is to my wallet. Would I argue with the AD? If I think there is a good chance to increase my wallet for the 2nd game, although it sounded like there wasn't a good chance so I would have gone home early. Does the AD have any say so? No unless local rules or committees say so. Once game commences, the umpire has jurisdiction to prevent any unfair termination of the game such as HT takes lead in bottom of 5th inning. Then, they want to call it in the top of the 6th with a light sprinkle. That is why umpires get full jurisdiction when game starts and not the HT(AD). But, if the league associations agree to this, then AD has say so. But, that is based upon a local agreement and not all associations. In this case, it sounds like I would have gone home with no problems. But, I would let the AD know I am calling the game and not him. So, he learns that he has no control over the next umpire who comes out and he thinks he can try it again b/c I didn't make that point clear enough. |
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If a school official comes to me and wants to stop a game because of weather or whatever, I'm done. I'll let the schools handle it with the state association and I'm getting paid. They can figure it out...much like the "innings pitched" rule...as far as I'm concerned, this pitcher can pitch as long as the coach keeps him in...they can handle it. Yes, by rule, the umpires have jurisdiction...sometimes I've had games where we try to be diplomatic with the AD's (both teams) and neither wants to make a decision so they leave it up to the umpires (since that's the rule) that's what I've experienced...I've never had a school official try to stop play sooner than what we or I've judged...though it certainly could happend. Sometimes we play at neutral sites and if the site manager says that the field is no longer playable or would be too expensive to get ready, etc...then we're done. Pretty simple, regardless of the level.
In our state tournament last week...the UIC and state association made all weather-related decisions...they told us that in our umpire pregame meeting. |
[QUOTE=PeteBooth;609383]
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As far as pissing off the AD being bad for my HS career, I couldn't care less. I don't care if I ever work varsity baseball; I just want something to do to stay involved in the game after my son is done playing this summer. I'm perfectly happy working freshman and sophomore games. They have such a shortage of baseball umpires around here, if you have a pulse you can get work so I'm not too worried about being blacklisted. I work plenty of varsity games in basketball and that is good enough for me. I appreciate everyone's feedback. |
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You are only partially correct in your first sentence. Yes, you have that authority, but when the home AD tells you he wants to suspend the game because of weather conditions, be thankful you are working with an AD that is be proactive with regard to the weather. I have had games where the coaches and sometimes the home AD are irrational; they would play the game in the middle of a toronado if you let them. Take your game fee check and get home early. Remember, the home AD has the same liablity concerns that you do, and it appears that this AD had his head and tuchus wired together and was on the ball concerning the weather. MTD, Sr. |
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I didn't say he has authority over you. I said he has authority over the use of the field. If you want to continue the game, fine - you just can't do it on that field. |
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Whether the state HS association has granted the ability for a unilateral decision by an AD to terminate a game held on his grounds is different from whether he has the legal authority to do so. |
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Betcha that menu fry that if you need someone for crowd control you'll think he IS the offfical rep of the school. Can't have it both ways. |
For all those sports officials that think that the AD can not suspend the game.
In general, the UIC/PU is in control of the diamond, BUT, the situation we are discussing has nothing to do with the general rules of baseball. It has to do with a school official and his jurisdiction with regard to the field conditions.
99.9999999999...........................% of the time, when the umpires use their good judgement and notify the proper school authority to fix a problem on the field that causes a safety hazard, the school authority or coach will complain that you are the first umpires that have made an issue about the alleged problem. But in the case being discussed, the AD is being proactive with regard to the condition of the field and is using his position as the home school representative, to insure that the safety of the players come first. As I have stated in an earlier post, take your game fee check and take your wife/girl friend/mistress (or all three) out to a nice dinner and be thankful for this AD. MTD, Sr. |
A friend of mine ejected the AD from a basketball game and directed security to escort him from the court. They complied. The AD can tell the coaches what to do, but not the officials. Dump the AD if you have to.
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In this case, however, he was acting properly and looking out for the students and I would not argue with him at all. |
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I once did a night game (no curfew at least to my or my partner's knowledge nor to the particpants). We were in the top half of nine (men's league game) in a close ball game. It was 11PM and all of a sudden the superintendent of the field we were playing on said - GAME OVER right then and there. In fact we no sooner got off the field and the lights were turned off. The point is the Decision to continue or stop a game is OURS HOWEVER, the FIELD per say is not ours. If someone OWNS the field and they say GAME OVER = GAME OVER. The STATUS of that game is now in the hands of the "powers to be" Same is pretty much true in MLB. It's not until a League OFFICIAL gets involved that the game is cancelled etc. We have seen some pretty horrific conditions in MLB and the game continued. The Montreal Expos / Dodger series many years back when it was snowing comes to mind. Pete Booth |
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If what you're stating were the case, I'd whole heartedly agree with you. If what the OP thought was correct and the AD was trying to cheat the players out of a double header because he wanted to get home, shame on him. I usually work with "game management" an give their input quite a bit of weight when it comes to matters like this. However, when I get the sense that adults are putting their interests ahead of the interests of the child players involved; I have no problem taking a stand. If the AD wants to go home that bad, he can pull his team and forfeit both games. |
I would have a problem with the AD butting in in this situation. Now if there was a nasty thunderstorm on the way, i could understand. Let's not forget, this is about field conditions. Once the game starts, the umpires are the SOLE authority as to whether conditions are fit to play. The umpires are in charge of the game, not the AD.
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Its the A.D. that has to explain the early end of the contest. If I got my check, bye bye.... Why the pissing match? Let him be the big shot............
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Brett: In the OP the author was injecting his own opinion about the AD's motives. We all know that an AD can not enter the officials' dressing room even if it is office, but the school distict responsibility for player safety is equal to the game officials and it is the game officials responsibility to make sure the school district complies with all safety rules. In the OP the school official representing the school district was erring on the side of safety (as the game officials should always, with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley, do). In these rain during the game situations, the schools involved (coaches and AD's) resist stopping the game because they want to play the game and forget their responsibility to the safety of the players is primary. So read my lips: When an AD wants to suspened the game because of safety concerns, thank him profusely, take your game fee check, and take your wife/girl friend/mistress (all three at once or seperately) to dinner with it. MTD, Sr. |
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None of those is true in your quote. Adding the word "sole" in the quote changes the meaning of it. |
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I don't think it changed the meaning of the original post. I thought it provided context that the partial quote left off. If we disagree on that point, so be it. I obviously wasn't trying to trick anyone by adding it. If I were I wouldn't have indicated the editorial addition with the brackets. Mark: Aren't you injecting his own opinion about the AD's motives? Under the circumstances you describe, I agree with you. I thought I already said that. |
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It's an extreme example - I just want to know if you have a line somewhere. |
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"Ok Mr. AD, it's my call once the game starts. You're probably right, but lets just wait 5/10 minutes until we really lose the field." If we were in conversation alone, maybe even note to him that he will look good to parents for trying to get the game in! Then 5 minutes later, count the cash and throw it in the trunk :) |
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So let's continue with your scenario. HT up by one Top 9. Visitors go ahead 10. Now the Town Superintendent says to you - GAME OVER. Guess what - GAME OVER I see no difference here. IMO, the point some are missing is this: If the AD wants to "kick the game" no matter what the circumstances, the umpires are "off the hook" Any "heat" or other "ramifications" that come from that game are on the AD. In reality if the AD did "kick the game' using your extreme example he would no longer be AD. Pete Booth |
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According to the witness: "When I came out side (the burglar) was running down the street." OR "It's obvioius (Brett) doesn't know squat about writing style." |
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What is wrong with some of you people. How many times have there been threads the game officials have erred on the side of safety and have been crucified by the coaches and game administration for being more concerned about being sued than letting the game continue. In the OP we have an AD who is doing the correct thing: erring on the side of safety and some of you guys are getting bent out of shape because this AD is stepping up to the plate and taking the position that the safety of the players come first and not trying to get a game played. GET WITH THE PROGRAM GUYS!! MTD, Sr. |
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2) Who said the umpire was trying to get the game played in unsafe conditions? Nobody here is arguing to play the game, we are arguing how to deal with an AD who wants to call it, which, by rule, he can't. ------------------ |
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That is the only point. To make sure he doesn't try to overstep his bounds in a situation where he needs to stay out of it. That is all at this point. Just walking off at the drop of a hat in a situation where the AD doesn't have business doing so is a bad idea. And, if you just walk off in something like that, make sure someone knows the AD just called the game and not the umpire. To make sure he is being held accountable for it and not the umpire. And, this was a DH. If at all possible, I am for getting the second game in. You don't get paid if you don't do the game. First one is paid for. What about the 2nd one? I would be thinking about the 2nd one myself. I don't care what the AD's motives are. I know what mine are. And, I won't sacrifice safety for money by no means. B/c I will also be thinking about my own. |
So if a school administrator tells you, the umpire in chief, that the grounds are unplayable and unsafe for the student athletes, you will allow them to continue just because you have the "sole" authority to "call" the game?
Better get your bank book,house title, and car title out, because my kid, the next batter, is going to sprain his ankle while trying to run out a grounder..........:D;) (school has no liability as its all yours now) |
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"[MrUmpire] should have used square brackets for editorial interpolations." :D |
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:D |
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Amen Brother. A personal story along the lines of the OP: A number of years ago, when I still officiating H.S. (NFHS Rules) soccer, I was the AR1 (meaning I was the linesman on the Scorer/Timer/Team Benches side of the field) in a boys' H.S. varsity soccer game. The Home team was Grosse Ile (Mich.) H.S. which is a very very wealthy community south of Detroit. I did not know it at the time, but GIHS had and still does one of those super expensive lightning detection systems (the type you find at the U.S.G.A. Men's Open Championship and Highland Meadows G.C., home of the Jamie Farr-Owens Corning LPGA Championship). The GIHS AD approached me with about ten (10) minutes left in the first half and requested that I notify the R to come to the touchline at the first stoppage of play, which happened less that twenty (20) seconds later. The AD told us, that despite the sky looking absolutly beautiful, the lightning detection system had detected a thunderstorm in the area and he was suspending the game for the safety of the participants. We did not have to be told twice to get the teams off of the playing field and into the H.S. Fifteen (15) minutes later the thunderstorm hit the area. MTD, Sr. |
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I had a freshman doubleheader today. Rain came in the 2nd inning and I suspended play in the bottom of the third because it was getting too wet and the pitcher was starting to have footing issues. Anyway, the field was still salvageable if the rain stopped soon, so of course I decided to wait for awhile to see what happened. The Athletic Director for the home school was there (which almost never happens), and he came up to me as the players were coming off the field and told me that he was calling the game Notice that he said that the field was not unsalvageable. A little DiamondDry or other dry dirt substance around the plate, mound and bases, and we're good to go if it stops raining soon. That's how I see it. Then, a heavy-handed AD comes harumphing in and steps on the umpire's balls. The rules state two things: <ol>You wait a minimum of 30 minutes before making a rainout decision, in case the weather clears up. As soon as the home team’s batting order is handed to the umpire-in-chief, the umpires are in charge of the playing field and from that moment they shall have sole authority to determine when a game shall be called, suspended or resumed on account of weather or the condition of the playing field.</ol> In the case of the OP, the field could still have been played on if the rain stopped, so I would want to try my best to get both game fees. I hate raining out games, then going a mile to my house and watch the sun come out for the rest of the day. It's happened. |
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By the way, this AD has already resigned his position, which will be effective at the end of the month. He's going back to teaching because being an AD is too demanding of his time (that is the reason he gave to the local paper). He wanted to get out of there; safety wasn't his concern in my opinion. |
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Now the HC comes to you and says "Blue this field is unplayable you should call it". In your opinion the field is still playable. F1's are throwing strikes etc. Now what! Using your logic if you do not call the game and someone gets hurt - Sue time. Bottom line People will sue anyway. if the AD is going to ask you to call the game then MAKE CERTAIN that each team KNOWS this so that you as the umpiring crew do not take the heat. In the example given since there were 2 games scheduled I would ask the AD - Are you going to cancel both games? RE: get the 2 game FEES Also, suppose the VT traveld some distance. They might get upset about coming all this way and then having the game Kicked without even waiting 15 - 20 minutes to see if it clears or not. In Summary: I have no problem if the AD wants to "kick the game" BUT I would make it "Crystal Clear" to both coaches that the AD is cancelling the game etc. Therefore, if there are any reprocussions the AD takes the heat not the umpires. Pete Booth |
If AD wants to cheat, that's going to be between him and the state governing board...if player safety comes up from a school administrator...I'm done...they can figure it out between them...ultimately they're the ones to have to work together many more times than I'll be seeing them. Yep, I agree w/ your points Pete.
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Another point here
Not to throw a wrench in here, or maybe this has been discussed, but....
If this a Freshman DH, the AD might have had another reason to end the game: He is backed up on Varsity dates due to rainouts, and if there is more rain, his field may make playing future games very hard or impossible to do. Then the thinking goes like this: 1. AD sees rain, and field getting muddy. 2. He knows that he has 4 varsity make-up dates he has to get in. 3. If it rains and the FR teams tear up the field, he has big problems getting Varsity games in. 4. Varsity is more important than JV of FR. 5. 'Voila!' The FR game is ended, pay the umps, get the tarp on and pray for a sunny day before FB season starts. If the AD wants the game ended, take the $$$ and run, see if you can con him into getting paid for both, then head for the nearest Root Beer stand.... |
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