FPSR Violation??
 

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Picasa Web Albums - BOB - CHS vs Beechwood

Go to the last 3 pics of the 3rd row of pics.

FPSR violation??

Can someone list the rule wording.

Thanks

Huh?
 

Ok, so maybe it is just a brain fart :eek: or I have just not been able to get a hold of the acronyms on this site :confused: (OOO took me awhile), but I will stick my neck out and ask... what is FPSR?

My apologies.

Force Play Slide Rule

By the way, I should add that the BR was safe at first.

shouldn't matter safe or out at 1B in some situations

It is, and it obviously wasn't called.

what rule set are they playing under?

I'll assume you're talking about pics 22-24...It looks to me like the runner is in violation of the FPSR.

8-4-2

"ART. 2 . . . Any runner is out when he:

2. When a play is being made on a runner or batter-runner, he establishes
his baseline as directly between his position and the base toward
which he is moving.
b. does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the
actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play, or on a force play,
does not slide in a direct line between the bases; or
1. A runner may slide in a direction away from the fielder to avoid making
contact or altering the play of the fielder.
2. Runners are never required to slide, but if a runner elects to slide, the
slide must be legal. (2-32-1, 2) Jumping, hurdling, and leaping are all
legal attempts to avoid a fielder as long as the fielder is lying on the
ground. Diving over a fielder is illegal."

-Josh

Spence,

If I'm the umpire, that is absolutely an FPSR violation.

JM

I thought so as well but he seemed to hesitate and then decided to not call it. No impact on the outcome of the game though.

Was this a 3-man or 4-man crew?

4

FPSR=Force Play Slide Rule
 

A FED safety related rule that exists in some form or fashion in all rule sets played by amateurs.

I say YES! FPSR violation-no doubt whatsoever. But, if the DP was obtained without calling it then by all means wait and call it only when necessary. If you think the contact was malicious then eject.

I called this once this year and did not wait to see if they got the back end of the DP at first. In these pics it looks to me like R1 had no intent to do anything but break up the DP. Did he?

I worked about 20 miles away from this field on a HS field in neighboring Covington. That turf looks exactly like University of Louisville's turf. No dirt except the mound. Sure helps prevent rainouts.

This game was an upset win by Beechwood (the team in Red). I have worked them a couple of times in the past. The Beechwood head coach has a long white Santa Claus style beard so in those red uniforms he looks like Santa coaching baseball. He is a fierce competitor who gives umpires hell. I had to restrict him to the dugout once. His team was winning and he was still arguing everything. I probably would have had to dump him if they were losing.

I disagree with this. Call it when you see it. If you call it, other runners return to TOP; if you don't call it, they likely advance.

If you call it, it (likely) won't happen again (in that game). If you don't call it, it (likely) will, and then you'll have another decision to make, and / or an explanation to give.

Wow. Just wow. With an umpire standing right there, it's pretty obvious that R1 was not sliding straight at the base. And then he hit the fielder. Textbook FPSR.

And this gets called regardless of the play at first. U2 isn't even watching that play and should be calling "That's interference! Time!" as soon as it happens.

As we all know, just because this was a championship game, it doesn't necessarily mean that championship officials were on it. It is unfortunate but, happens often.

Exactly, championship officials just make the calls. This is an example of an umpire chocking under the pressure. In basketball they would call that "swallowing the whistle"

Thanks
David

It seems that the picture order has bee reshuffled since the OP was posted.

If this is the picture that we are talking about.......


http://lh6.ggpht.com/_j79xoQs7Q04/Sh...8/_MG_3925.JPG

I have R1 out on FPSR and BR out just to put the icing on the cake!

I like getting 2 for the price of 1! (heh, heh, heh)

Yep, that's the decisive image. FPSR violation at least 2 ways. Runner out, BR out. Next!

That's the TRUTH!

So you will wait to see, and if they turn the double play with no one out you will allow the runner on 3B to score?

NCAA also has FPSR, and some amateur rules do not.

To DG: As a Plate Umpire.....
 

I have never seen or called a FPSR violation from the plate area. I have responsibilities at the plate area and at third. The only time I can see it or call it is with R1 when I am coming out far enough to see it and call it.

I had one this season in a FED game (How do you spell safety? Can you say NFHS? Sure, I knew you could.)where I called it immediately when I saw it. I got to about C position from the plate when the slide occured past the bag dumping the F6. I saw it and did not wait until the DP was over. IF both runners are out I don't have to make a big deal calling the automatic DP like I did. My call resulted in a big S**thouse which resulted in a longer than I liked discussion and explanation to the head coach for the offense then an argument and ultimately a dump of the assistant coach.

If I had waited, the DP happened anyway and I could have just spoken to the offensive head coach on the way back to the dugout and probably avoided dumping his assistant. They were getting killed and looking for a scapegoat. I personally think the ASSistant put on a show to try to get their players fired up but it still detracted from the game and wasted time and got the ignorant inbred fans fired up which resulted in some more warnings and restrictions.

I am not afraid to make a call, especially that call, but I think I learned a little bit about managment of situations in that instance. I should have waited then told the coach of the offending player that I saw it, pointed it and would have called it if I had to. They made a mountain out of a mole hill for a differing purpose and I fell into the trap. It was the first time that team had been run-ruled in about five years (A very good high school program that ultimately went to the regional semi-finals this year).

As to some amateur leagues that do not use FPSR I assume you mean that BS adult baseball crap where full grown men still try to be boys and jeopardize their personal health and family's financial well being trying to continue to live the dream. We don't have that around here and I would not work it under any circumstance. I am not that hard up for games or money. From the stories I hear those games often become a travesty and a testament to bad sportsmanship. If I worked them I would have to dump almost everyone and then I wouldn't get asked back anyway.

Sorry so long but you struck a nerve and I guess you might have meant to. If not I apologize and if so, good job. I'm sure you are proud and smug about it.

Then you would have to dump an opposing runner the next inning, as he commits malicious contact in revenge, since you apparently didn't think the original play was illegal.

You have to call it when you see it. Without that, it becomes way too much of a free-for-all, and you will have some explaining to do when you call it on the opposing team's identical play.

So you got caught up in a storm of someone else's creation. So what? It happens.

I have seen and called FPSR from the plate, but only when there is an R2 or R3. With R1 only it is my responsibility to watch for this and be out from behind the plate to do it.

My point, which you missed, is that you call it when you see it, not wait to see what happens. If you allow a double play to happen a run could score while you wait to see something that is irrelevant.

You seem to prefer waiting to make the legitimate call, which is wrong, and my point, to having coaches come out and argue.

Adult baseball is not youth baseball. There are youth leagues that don't have FPSR.

My intent was not to strike a nerve, but to get you think about the consequences of not calling it when you see it (run scores because you allowed a DP to happen, sh*house happens because you didn't, etc).

Your game management skills are not complete until you call FPSR when you see it, and deal with the sh*thouse that might ensue. If you understand this after this discussion then I am proud, if not I don't really care.

"There are youth leagues that don't have FPSR."
 

Please, enlighten us. Which one(s)? I have never worked any level of baseball that doesn't have some version requiring players to avoid contact when sliding or setting rules for sliding and when contact is allowed.

I don't work any 60' baseball. I tried it and didn't like it. Others may wish to know which of those but I don't.

I bet these are some kind of house/local league. Maybe not but fortunately I don't work them.

FPSR is a legitimate rule and I call it more than most of my high school compadres. But, I have not had the opportunity (yet) to observe it from the plate area. If I see it I will call it and send the runners not involved back. I have no problem with that.

As far as malicious contact I have called it several times as well but usually at the plate and maybe once or twice at second. Never at third or first or between bases.

Thanks for making me think a little bit.

Unless a recent change, Babe Ruth baseball does not have FPSR. Check LL, Dixie, and others, as I am not up on those. FPSR is generally used for leagues that use FED rules.

I had it this year at the plate. Bases loaded and a grounder to F3 . Throw to F2 and R3 slides hard into F2 past the plate. F2 (legs taken out) couldn't throw back to F3.
Nothing malicious. Would have been good, hard baseball if playing OBR.

Good in NCAA as well.

While these leagues don't use FPSR, they do feature sliding rules, which prohibit malicious contact in some way. They usually phrase it "slide or avoid collision." In the last 20 years or so, I haven't run into a youth league (under 18) that just lets the runner crash the fielder with immunity.

In FED they can only slide to the back of home plate...not through home plate either.

I agree, most local leagues have some form of malicious contact rule that they added on top of the Charter/Franchise (ie Babe Ruth Baseball) rules. If you take a team off to a District tournament all the local rules are bye-bye and you play by Charter/Franchise rules. Babe Ruth Baseball didn't even have a malicious contact rule until the early 90's and I hope I had something to do with that because I sent two very graphic videos of crashes at the plate, with 10 and 11 year olds. Even now the malicious contact rule specifically mentions the plate, but not any other bases.

But very few have written a FPSR into their local league rules, in fact none I have been involved with. The only ones that have it are ones that play FED.

Well, this isn't quite accurate. It all depends on where the initial contact with the catcher is -- if the initial contact is in front of the plate, it doesn't matter if R3 slides through.

On the other hand, under OBR . . .
 

PONY pony game. PONY is a youth league that uses OBR with few additions, not including a FPSR or other sliding contact provisions. Its pony division is 13-14yo's.

R1, one out. Batter grounds to F6, who fires to F4 crossing second for the force. As F4 pivots behind second to throw to first, R1 slides feet-first hard into him. The slide took R1 within reach of the base, but his legs were well past the base. His right leg in the air but not above the fielder's knee, and his left leg got some air as the slide got into F4's legs. F4 began to fall forward towards first as he began his throw. R1 then jerks his legs sideways toward third, taking F4's legs with him and causing F4 to fall sideways to his left. F4 interrupts his throw to break his fall. R1 ends up with second base in his right armpit and F4 at his feet.

Under Fed, BR is out two or three different ways. But what result under OBR? I was okay until the runner slashed the fielder's legs out from under him, then called interference, BR out. OC thought it was just robust baseball.

Good question. One option is malicious contact, since you have a player basically kicking and tripping another player. I'd have to see the play to know whether we'd have an EJ here.

Another option is to do what you did: rule interference. I'd lean this way as well: you had not one act by the runner, but two. First, he slid within a reach of the base and contacted the fielder (legal). Second, he intentionally kicked the fielder's legs out (interference). I think that's how I'd explain it to the coach.

The general problem here is that without the FPSR, you have to determine what counts as interference on a slide play. In pro ball, this runner would probably not be called out for interference, but he'd get drilled the next time he came up to bat. So the pros have a remedy for this behavior that you would not want to allow on an amateur field.

And that's the sticky spot for interpreting interference on slide plays: the OC wants you to use a pro interp in a context where the remedy is not available to the defense. That's an argument for having a somewhat more restrictive approach to interference on slides.

As much as people bash FED for their approach to safety, it's worth recognizing that some 80% of baseball injuries happen during slide plays. Baseball is a contact sport, but I think that at least some of these injuries are preventable with a proper application of the rules.

While PONY uses Official Rules of Baseball, every league and tournament I have ever worked or read about has adopted rules prohiting crashing into fielders in a malicious manner. It usually reads "slide or avoid collision." This is always discussed at the ground rules, for the very reason that there is no provision in OBR for such enforcement. But you cannot barrel over the catcher in PONY baseball, despite not being stated in the national, official PONY rules.

Here is an example from one Pony League's local rules:

MALICIOUS CONTACT RULE
A player / runner not only can be called out but also ejected from the game for making contact in a malicious manner. Example: A runner knocks over a defensive player in an attempt to dislodge the ball to avoid being called out. Malicious contact will be in the sole judgment of the umpire. The penalty for malicious contact is also the sole judgment of the umpire.

Here is another example from a different Pony League:

Any runner is out when he/she:
4.1.1. Fails to slide or to take other evasive action(s) to avoid contact with the defensive player. A defensive player may not interfere with the advancement of the runner to any base. A defensive player may not position himself in the base path unless he is making a play on the ball. Such a position, which results, in the opinion of the umpire, in impeding the progress of the runner to a subsequent base, shall necessitate the umpire awarding an additional base to the runner. A catcher may not block the plate in violation of Official Baseball Rule 7.06(b)(note). For example, a runner will be awarded the base to which he or she is advancing if, in the determination of the umpire, the runner used evasive techniques that included going outside of the base path to avoid a collision or contact with the defensive player.

This rule is intended at a minimum to end intentional decisions by a runner to collide with a defensive player in order to dislodge the ball or cause sufficient injury or pain to cause the defensive player to release the ball. The umpire will determine violation of this rule. Should the umpire determine mat the runner has violated the rule, the runner will be called out, however, and the ball will remain live. In the event the failure to slide or to take evasive action(s) causes the defensive player, in the determination of the umpire, to be unable to complete a double play, the umpire may determine that both runners involved in the double play are out. All the decisions of the umpire, with regard to this rule, shall be final and cannot be appealed. PENALTY: The umpire shall eject the player determined to have violated the rule for the remainder of the game in which the violation of the rule took place and shall warn the Manager and the bench and shall report the violation to the NSBA 1st VP within 24 hours of the ejection.

I was ok with the slide up until R1 jerks his legs sideways. I would call that willful and intentional interference under OBR and get two outs.

On the subject of willful and intentional interference the MLBUM has this to say: "Runner has willfully and deliberately interfered with a fielder with the obvious intent to deprive the defense of the opportunity to make a double play. Batter-runner is declared out for the runner's interference." It goes on to say that R1 is out also even if he had not been put out on the play. It also says that "If, in the judgment of the umpire, a runner willfully and deliberately interferes..."

So if you judge to be, then it is, and 2 outs, any other runners return to their bases.