Appeal on SF in last of 9th
 

Watching the DET TOR game tonight where a SF brought in game winning run brought up the following sit.

Bases loaded tie game, last 9th no outs. Batter hits Fly to OF and runner on 3B scores on a close play at HP and entire winning team runs on field congratulating every one. Catcher then goes to 3B and appeals to umpire that runner left too early which is upheld. Is one of the runners on originally on 1B or 2B (now in dugout) automatically called out for leaving baseline or does catcher have to tag them?

What did the MLB umpires do? Did they return both runners if catcher didn't do any of the things that you that you suggested? MLB umpires quest is to get every call right. I say that they more than likely fixed the situation and put runners back on base.

My guess is the catcher wouldn't have to tag anyone. Runners would be called out for leaving the field of play if such a rule exists for a play like the one you described at the supposed end of a ball game.

If they ran off the field and into the dugout, yes, no tag necessary.

Is the game still going on? Because that's 3 outs and no run scores.

This is a WHAT IF?, and not something that actually happened.

And yes, I was scouring ESPN myself, for a while.

No, F2 has to tag the man that was on first OR F4 or F6 have to tag the man that was on second unless they turned out to be women. (Hey what if) you never know in todays world. Unless the game is played in Detriot then the catcher can tag anyone and declare victory for the Tigers, which is just about as rare as a victory for SF. But hey you never know because it could be whatever we want it to be. Ya know like , What if SF actually wins the World Series this year ???????????????????????????????????????????????

Oh sorry, just wondering out loud.

I'm sure someone will have a pro rule interp book, but I would think that since the game was officially over you could not expect the runners to stay on 1st and 2nd waiting to see if the defense would make an appeal. The appeal (and upholding the appeal) would basically reopen the game and the umpires should simply return the runners to the bases they were on at the time of appeal.

Nothing in the rule book would justify making a runner stay on a base when the game is officially over (by rule the game is officially over when home team scores winning run in bottom of ninth) . Again the proper appeal would simply be a way to reopen the game.

That would be the apparent winning run you are refering to, because it would not be the official winning run. The game is not officially over just because an apparant winning run has scored.

Nonsense.

In a MLB game the catcher would have thrown inmnediately - it's done routinely at that level.


No way in hades the other runners would have made it to the dugout.

Don't you mean the game is officially over when the home team LEGALLY scores the winning run in the bottom of the ninth? In this case, the run would become legal when the umpires left the field of play (I believe it's the same as in FEDs but not 100%) and there was not a proper appeal prior to their departure.

Now what to do with the runners...I believe they are obligated to stay on their respective bases until playing action has concluded.

-Josh

Nope OBR 4-11c

(c) If the home team scores the winning run in its half of the ninth inning (or its half of an extra inning after a tie), the game ends immediately when the winning run is scored.


The run scores until it is erased by the appeal...(this last line is my statement)

I stand corrected. I don't have my books with me, true in FED as well?

-Josh

Maybe I'm different, but I I'd give the runners the benefit of the doubt and return them to their bases, whether they were tagged or not. I can't reasonably expect the players (especially HS players) to stand on a base after the winning run scored. Once the appeal was upheld, I'd return the vacated runners to their proper base and continue the game with 2 outs.

That's because you're reasonable and sportsmanlike.

How about this situation:

R1 and B3 up to bat with a 3-2 count and 1 out. R1 attempting to steal on the pitch. On a high pitch (ball), B3 check swings and F2 comes out of his crouch position (to throw out R2) which partial blocks the PU view of the swing. F2 instinctively throws it to F4 to putout R2 stealing. The PU did not believe he offered and declares "Ball Four". R1 hears "Ball Four" and slows to a jog. F2's throw beats R1 to the base and was tagged by F4. The BU signals nothing, "Ball four gentlemen".

The defensive coach asks the catcher to appeal the swing, he asks the PU to appeal, and the PU asks the BU. "Did he go?" The BU clearly saw that he went and declares, "Yes, he went!" The batter is declared out by the PU. What do you do with the R1? Lets not get in a pi$$ing match of "this would never happen to me because I would have went to BU right away" or "the BU better agree with my call". Mistakes happen and, as the PU, you thought it wasn't even close (but obviously your view was blocked more than you thought).

(Sorry gentleman, I have to leave for the day. Will continue this later...)

-Josh

Under OBR and NCAA, R1 is out. It's right in the (at least OBR) book.

Under FED, the umpires can decide whether R1 would have been safe or out had the correct call been made right away, and rule accordingly (also, I think, in the book).

I'm hoping that's not a problem.

I agree this is the rule. NFHS's 4.2.2 says the exact same thing. But what is the intention of that rule? I would contend that this rule means that you don't continue with the remainder of the inning after the winning run scores, ie don't have anymore at bats. On the other hand, I believe you shall let the continuing action progress before you end the game. For instance, you want to make sure that each forced runner (and the B/R) successfully completes their obligations.

Bob, Agree with OBR (haven't looked into NCAA or FED yet but I believe you). The PBUC says:

To me, it seems like this says that the base runner is responsible for being aware of possible appeals (in this case check swing appeals).

I guess my biggest hurdle is when should the umpire declare the game has ended (aka kill the play). Should he do it immediately after the run scores or after playing action ceases? If there is a play at the plate (runner is safe) should the umpire wait to see if F2 will appeal the runner leaving early? I believe I would wait a few seconds and see what the catcher does. If he rolls the ball to the mound or looks to throw the ball to me, I would put my hands in the air (and imply the game is over with). Then if they want to appeal, the game would be reopened.

HOWEVER, if the catcher immediately throws it to third to appeal, why would I kill the play immediately upon the run scoring. Why not let the continuing action play out?

Lets say I kill the play, not anticipating an appeal by the defense. In FED, the defense can appeal while the ball is dead. Call the runner out and place the runners where they should go. In OBR (and NCAA, I believe), the ball needs to be made live for an appeal (correct?). (I'm speaking off of my limited knowledge of NCAA and OBR, excuse my ignorance). So you would have to make the ball live...Pitcher on the pitcher's plate, batter in the box...etc...runners back on the bases. Pitcher would throw the ball to third, runner out.

If you don't kill the play, why wouldn't the runners be responsible to stay on the base until the ball is dead? Maybe I'm just a mean young man ;)

Good discussion gentleman..I always enjoy these discussions that make me think about some practical what-ifs

-Josh