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-   -   Time! That's a balk! (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/52755-time-thats-balk.html)

waltjp Tue Apr 07, 2009 03:32pm

Time! That's a balk!
 
I'm on the plate for a FED game a couple of years ago. R1, no outs.

Batter is in the box and F1, pitching from the stretch, brings his hands together and comes set. He then steps and throws to first base as R1 is breaking for second.

My partner immediately calls "Time! That's a balk!"

By this time F3 was already throwing to second base to make a play on R1. All play stops. The runner stops running. F6 catches and just holds the ball. Everyone is looking to the BU and waiting for him to say something.

Now the fun begins. The BU decides that there was no balk on the play and decides he's going to send R1 back to first base.

Of course, sh*t storm follows.

What would you do?

scarolinablue Tue Apr 07, 2009 03:49pm

I'm going to let him enjoy said storm from the defensive coach. It's necessary to rectify any situation placing either team at a disadvantage caused by the umpire's actions, so essentially declaring a "no play - do over" type situation is the only reasonable course of action.

The temptation here is to call R1 out since, as described in the OP, sounds as if F6 is waiting on him with the ball. However, there is nothing to support such a call, and calling the runner out when he stopped due to the umpire's actions wouldn't be proper - who's to say the ball doesn't come loose when R1 slides into second?

jdmara Tue Apr 07, 2009 04:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltjp (Post 594674)
I'm on the plate for a FED game a couple of years ago. R1, no outs.

Batter is in the box and F1, pitching from the stretch, brings his hands together and comes set. He then steps and throws to first base as R1 is breaking for second.

My partner immediately calls "Time! That's a balk!"

By this time F3 was already throwing to second base to make a play on R1. All play stops. The runner stops running. F6 catches and just holds the ball. Everyone is looking to the BU and waiting for him to say something.

Now the fun begins. The BU decides that there was no balk on the play and decides he's going to send R1 back to first base.

Of course, sh*t storm follows.

What would you do?

Place the runner back on first and admit that you're human.

-Josh

DonInKansas Tue Apr 07, 2009 06:14pm

Grab popcorn from stands.

Watch said shizzlestorm.

Drop popcorn and move to corral ejected manager if it gets to that point.:D

ozzy6900 Tue Apr 07, 2009 06:47pm

From your description, it sounds like R1 was going to be out anyway (another tempting way to call it). Either way you call it, someone is going to be screwed. R1 should be out and putting him back at 1st could cost a run.

So let your partner get defecated upon and stay within an earshot to monitor the situation. There were times I knew the coach and after a minute, I just said "What do you think, Joe, shall we get on with the game now?". Then I usually turn to my partner and tell him to "shake it off, we've still got a lot of game left." making sure that the coach hears this. This let's the coach know that I still have my partner's back. I also will not allow a "shark attack" on every call that my partner makes after that.

SanDiegoSteve Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:36pm

Since BU killed the ball, R1 returns, no balk. Shizzle storm commences. Both teams say, "huh?"

DG Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:13pm

Balk is immediate dead ball, so nobody can be put out after a balk call, right or wrong call.

You can calmy discuss the error with whichever coach needs it without having to eject anyone and put R1 back on 1B.

cc6 Wed Apr 08, 2009 03:48am

If I'm the plate umpire, I will echo my partner's call. Sh1tstorm won't be nearly as bad for my partner if it looks like we are on the same page.

waltjp Wed Apr 08, 2009 08:28am

The situation basically went down as everyone stated. We returned R1 to first base and resumed the game. The BU did take his share of the heat and some if it turned on me, too. I casually know one of the assistant coaches from the defensive team. His question was "A do-over?"

I explained that the ball was dead when time was declared. No out had been recorded and the runner had not yet gained his advance base.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozzy6900 (Post 594689)
Then I usually turn to my partner and tell him to "shake it off, we've still got a lot of game left." making sure that the coach hears this. This let's the coach know that I still have my partner's back. I also will not allow a "shark attack" on every call that my partner makes after that.

I like this advice, Ozzy. I don't remember my exact words but I can only hope I handled it nearly this well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cc6 (Post 594734)
If I'm the plate umpire, I will echo my partner's call. Sh1tstorm won't be nearly as bad for my partner if it looks like we are on the same page.

Are you suggesting you'd have agreed with your partner's balk call?

UmpTTS43 Wed Apr 08, 2009 09:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cc6 (Post 594734)
If I'm the plate umpire, I will echo my partner's call. Sh1tstorm won't be nearly as bad for my partner if it looks like we are on the same page.

Echoing a call is great if you can explain the balk. If you can't explain what happened, stay silent. To call a balk you have to see a balk. The only page you will be on when you cant explain it is the comics page.

jdmara Wed Apr 08, 2009 09:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cc6 (Post 594734)
If I'm the plate umpire, I will echo my partner's call. Sh1tstorm won't be nearly as bad for my partner if it looks like we are on the same page.

You would echo your partner's call even if you don't see it? hmm....If action continues after he calls a balk just proclaim the ball as dead. There are few reasons to echo any call your partner makes and I don't believe this is one of such call.

-Josh

Kevin Finnerty Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:50am

"A do-over?!?"

"No, [insert name]; it's a do-nothing."

That would be my answer. No balk, no base, no out, no pitch ... nothing.

jdmara Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty (Post 594819)
"A do-over?!?"

"No, [insert name]; it's a do-nothing."

That would be my answer. No balk, no base, no out, no pitch ... nothing.

You forgot no crying :p

-Josh

cc6 Thu Apr 09, 2009 07:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 (Post 594759)
Echoing a call is great if you can explain the balk. If you can't explain what happened, stay silent. To call a balk you have to see a balk. The only page you will be on when you cant explain it is the comics page.

If you don't echo it, then you've put your partner in an even worse situation. If I echo a call and the coach comes to me, I'll tell him my partner saw a balk, I didn't, but part of my job is to make the call concurrently with my partner.

waltjp Thu Apr 09, 2009 07:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cc6 (Post 594931)
If you don't echo it, then you've put your partner in an even worse situation. If I echo a call and the coach comes to me, I'll tell him my partner saw a balk, I didn't, but part of my job is to make the call concurrently with my partner.

Echoing calls is wrong. If you're partner is incorrect and you echo his call, then you're both wrong. And why would you need two calls on any given play?

jdmara Thu Apr 09, 2009 08:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cc6 (Post 594931)
If you don't echo it, then you've put your partner in an even worse situation. If I echo a call and the coach comes to me, I'll tell him my partner saw a balk, I didn't, but part of my job is to make the call concurrently with my partner.

I disagree that it's part of your job to echo the call of your partner. You don't echo his out/safe calls, his strike/ball count, his proclamation that the ball is now in play, or his call to his wife after the game...why would you echo a balk UNLESS (in FED) play is continuing because the players may not have heard him?

-Josh

Robert E. Harrison Thu Apr 09, 2009 09:26am

Echooooooo0000
 
It is OK to ecko a foul call.

SethPDX Thu Apr 09, 2009 03:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43 (Post 594759)
Echoing a call is great if you can explain the balk. If you can't explain what happened, stay silent. To call a balk you have to see a balk. The only page you will be on when you cant explain it is the comics page.

I had the plate last weekend (13-14s, modified OBR). I heard my partner call a balk, but I couldn't see what the pitcher did. When described after the game it turned out to be an easy call (for the BU).

Now, if had repeated the balk call, the manager came to ask me about it, and I had to say, "The BU called a balk, but I don't know what it is so you'll have to ask him," how does that help answer the manager's question?

It is okay to echo a time call, which we also did after the balk.

cc6 Thu Apr 09, 2009 05:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmara (Post 594937)
I disagree that it's part of your job to echo the call of your partner. You don't echo his out/safe calls, his strike/ball count, his proclamation that the ball is now in play, or his call to his wife after the game...why would you echo a balk UNLESS (in FED) play is continuing because the players may not have heard him?

-Josh

The way I've been taught for balk calls is:

Partner 1: "that's a balk!" (point to pitcher)
All other partners: "that's a balk" (point to pitcher)
Partner 1: "time!" (time signal)
All other partners: "time!" (time signal)
Partner 1: "you" (point to runner)
All other partners: "you" (point to runner)
Partner 1: "second base" (point to second base)
All other partners: "second base" (point to second base)
Point all other runners to whereever they go using the same process as above.

Same goes for infield flies. One partner says "infield fly" other partner says "infield fly" first partner says "batter's out" second partner says "batter's out".

Don't pound me too hard.

dash_riprock Thu Apr 09, 2009 05:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cc6 (Post 595027)
The way I've been taught for balk calls is:

Partner 1: "that's a balk!" (point to pitcher)
All other partners: "that's a balk" (point to pitcher)
Partner 1: "time!" (time signal)
All other partners: "time!" (time signal)
Partner 1: "you" (point to runner)
All other partners: "you" (point to runner)
Partner 1: "second base" (point to second base)
All other partners: "second base" (point to second base)
Point all other runners to whereever they go using the same process as above.

Same goes for infield flies. One partner says "infield fly" other partner says "infield fly" first partner says "batter's out" second partner says "batter's out".

Don't pound me too hard.

I don't place the runner(s) when my partner calls a balk unless he precedes it with "Simon Says."

ozzy6900 Thu Apr 09, 2009 06:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cc6 (Post 595027)
The way I've been taught for balk calls is:

Partner 1: "that's a balk!" (point to pitcher)
All other partners: "that's a balk" (point to pitcher)
Partner 1: "time!" (time signal)
All other partners: "time!" (time signal)
Partner 1: "you" (point to runner)
All other partners: "you" (point to runner)
Partner 1: "second base" (point to second base)
All other partners: "second base" (point to second base)
Point all other runners to whereever they go using the same process as above.

Same goes for infield flies. One partner says "infield fly" other partner says "infield fly" first partner says "batter's out" second partner says "batter's out".

Don't pound me too hard.

Not quite the way we do it here.
Balk
Umpire: "That's a balk!"
Everyone (if doing FED) "TIME!"
Umpire that called the balk will place the runners "YOU! 2nd base!" and partners will quietly usher the players as needed.
The only time we want more than one umpire calling the balk is if it was seen by multiple umpires. If you see it, call it, otherwise just echo TIME. The coach can't question you for that.

IFF
Umpire "Infield fly!"
Partner's echo "Infield Fly"
No one calls the batter out, he already knows that. The PU will signal the batter as out when the time is right.

Ump153 Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cc6 (Post 595027)
The way I've been taught for balk calls is:

You were taught wrong. Maybe it's a Canadian thing?

SanDiegoSteve Fri Apr 10, 2009 03:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cc6 (Post 595027)
The way I've been taught for balk calls is:

Partner 1: "that's a balk!" (point to pitcher)
All other partners: "that's a balk" (point to pitcher)
Partner 1: "time!" (time signal)
All other partners: "time!" (time signal)
Partner 1: "you" (point to runner)
All other partners: "you" (point to runner)
Partner 1: "second base" (point to second base)
All other partners: "second base" (point to second base)
Point all other runners to whereever they go using the same process as above.

Same goes for infield flies. One partner says "infield fly" other partner says "infield fly" first partner says "batter's out" second partner says "batter's out".

Don't pound me too hard.

The "time" thing I agree with, that should be echoed and signaled by partners.

An infield fly is only verbalized by the umpire who's call it is. For example, if the fly ball turns the BU toward the outfield, it becomes his primary call, and the PU merely gives an arm signal. If the fly is in front of BU, then it is the PU's call, and BU only gives the arm signal and is silent. And we were taught to say "Infield Fly, batter's out" only when it is clearly not near the foul line. On windy days, or if the ball is near the lines, always say, "Infield Fly, if fair."

SAump Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:47am

Immulate
 
Perhaps the echoing balk call is an interpretation of two partners making the same call at the same time. It happens in the competitive nature of our work. Of course to prevent something happing in the OP, neither of us can call a balk unless we have a short verbal explanation to follow the award. This is part of our unwritten ground rules. I take pride when my partner calls one before I do and quickly wonder why or when I did not interpret the action as quickly. We always post-game this w/ a congratulatory alertness comment and a detailed discussion. It let us both know we intend to get the next one first.

yawetag Fri Apr 10, 2009 07:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cc6 (Post 595027)
All other partners: "you" (point to runner)
Partner 1: "second base" (point to second base)
All other partners: "second base" (point to second base)
Point all other runners to whereever they go using the same process as above

I was taught to always start with the runner closest to the plate, then work your way around to first.

TxUmp Sat Apr 11, 2009 07:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAump (Post 595191)
. . . neither of us can call a balk unless we have a short verbal explanation to follow the award. . . .

Of course, you could use the explanation that a former member of our chapter used when a coach asked him what the pitcher what he had done. He said, "I don't know, Coach. It just didn't look right." :)


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