did the run score ?
 

bases loaded,2 strikes on the batter. The next pitch, batter check swings.
The ball gets by the catcher. Now heres the tricky part, R3 crosses the plate
before the catcher dives and tags the batter/runner. The check swing was appealed to the base ump, he called it a strike for the 3rd out.
Does the run score ?

No. Batter was out before reaching first.

Not only is the batter/runner out for not being retired before reaching first base, This IS NOT a time play!

Also, on a situation like this, if the swing is called: No he didn't go, the base umpire should come up RIGHT AWAY, with out being checked too, if in his opinion, the batter did go!

This is a very simple play, that happens quite a bit, with a very simple answer!

I'm sorry, I must have missed the tricky part.

Batter retired for the third out before safely reaching first base. No run scores.

Excuse me? That's not his call.

PU should make a quick appeal without being asked if there is any question. I've never heard that BU should simply make a call on this without being asked by PU.

I disagree with this assement.

On topic, no, like everyone else has stated

If on a potentially appealable swing/no swing call in which the batter may become a runner, BU needs to make and announce his decision without being requested via appeal. This is the voluntary strike mechanic.

Sorry, but Maz and Matt are correct. You come right out with it in such a case. BU does not wait for the PU to appeal. I don't know how long this mechanic has been in force, but it seems like years.

Amazing
 

How a question turned into a difference of opinion on an unusual umpire mechanic. I applaud whoever asked the original question.

The base umpire might be calling balls and strikes from the A position if he steamrolls the PU like that. You offer help ONLY IF ASKED by the PU in this situation.

OK -

It seems odd though that it has not been mentioned at any clinic I've attended. Clinics taught by MLB and NCAA umps with a lot of years of experience, a couple of which have taught at Harry's.

Not arguing it, it just seems like someone would have mentioned it.

It's listed specifically in the 2007 MLBUM. I think it's been a relatively new mechanic up here in MN anyway. It was taught to immediately ask, but this mechanic is better...if he goes, BU should simply signal yes he went. The other side of it is that the batter/runner should be coached to sprint it out either way in this case...much like the infield fly rule where it's stated that the players are responsible for knowing the rule regardless of whether or not IFF is called

Same Situation, Almost
 

Question for Ken. Did you mean to ask about a LL, FED, NCAA or OBR ruling?

The catcher doesn't tag the runner. IOW, the catcher races back to the backstop to retrieve the ball and turns to fire toward 1B. He sees the B/R standing outside the box 1BLX and then walks over to tag him (check swing appeal). IOW, the defense makes the appeal while the B/R is standing outside the box inside 1BLX. The B/R had cleared the box to avoid interference w/ play on R3. F1 did not cover the plate, conceeding the run, while pointing out to his catcher to tag the B/R.

Well, it is a mechanic that is used in both Los Angeles and the SF Valley H.S. units. I am not certain about the entire state association.

All I know is that it is the mechanic for this and similar situations. EXAMPLE: [Three-man crew] Two out, runners at first and second, 3-2 count. Runners go on the pitch, a change-up that dies and hits the ground near the opposite batter's box and skips off the catcher's mitt. The batter takes a half-swing, and the BU instantaneously screams "Yes he did," while doing the hammer twice. The runner thinks he walked, so he trots away, then suddenly bolts for first, as the lead runner flies around third. The catcher rdraws to throw for what will be a close play on the batter/runner, and everyone's screaming at him to watch the guy coming from third. He eats his throw and turns toward third and throws behind the guy and starts a rundown. Both trail runners are hesitating between bases, because there are two outs. A throw skips off of the third baseman's glove and rolls away, and the lead runner gets up and heads for home, and the trail runner is tagged out at second right after the guy crosses the plate, who scores on a time play.

This actually happened and it worked perfectly.

And what in hell is this off-topic-so-it-can't-be-discussed nonsense? Good Lord, how dull would any conversation or debate (or life) be if you have to abide by that curious standard?

There is only so much an umpire can do when relying on what a player should do. The sooner a call is resolved, the better for everyone.

For the OP--rendering a decision on the unasked appeal is absolutely necessary. I would say the voluntary strike is most crucial with bases loaded and an uncaught potential third strike. If the batter held, then announcing such ensures that the defense knows that the advancing runner must be tagged. If he didn't, then the defense knows that there is a force and the offense knows that the batter is now in jeopardy.

As for it being a relatively new mechanic in MN, I'm the only one I've ever seen use it, and that was in a B-league game back in '05.

Let me spell again
 

Most catchers dive towards the plate. This catcher dives and tags the the B/R.
You would have to wonder why he dove at the B/R. Wierd?

You guys can blast me all you want. You can Harry's School, Jim's School, NCAA Clinic, Arizona Umpire Academy, O.U.T.S. Clinic me all you want. Here is the ultimate, CRYSTAL CLEAR and Highest authority on this question!!!

THE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL UMPIRE MANUAL (Yes...I have one!)
READ CAREFULLY

Section 8.7

"VOLUNTARY STRIKE"

In the situation where the third strike eludes the catcher on a half-swing and the batter/runner is entitled to first base, the appeal should be made to the base umpire instantly (without waiting for a request from the defense); but even if the appeal is not instant, the appropriate base umpire should immediately and voluntarilymake a call of strike IF the base umpire is going to reverse the plate umpire's call. This will give the batter/runner the immediate opportunity to run.


And as for the original question, if the batter/runner has not reached first base, and the batter/runner is retired, NO RUNS CAN SCORE!!!

See, I told you Maz and Matt were right. Especially Maz.

The exact quote from the MLB:

8.7 "VOLUNTARY STRIKE"
In the situation where the third strike eludes the catcher on a half-swing and the batter-runner is entitled to run to first base, the appeal should be made to the base umpire instantly (without waiting for a request from the defense); but even if the appeal is not instant, the appropriate base umpire should immediately and voluntarily make a call of strike IF the base umpire is going to reverse the plate umpire's call. This will give the batter the immediate opportunity to run.

[Bolding, caps, and quotation marks copied from MLBUM.]

You could also read this thread, where the same question was asked (and answered) http://forum.officiating.com/basebal...eck-swing.html

Edited to add: I type too slow!

By now you know that it *can* be an accepted mechanic.

That said, if the mechanic is not used in your area, I wouldn't spring it on an unsuspecting PU without discussing it in the pre-game.

And, if you're the PU, you can ask for help without being asked by the defense -- it's almost as good as BU just coming up with the call.

Either way, it lets both teams know what is going on and helps (but, as Kevin illustrates doesn't eliminate) avoid the post-call-reversal discussions / third world plays that might happen.

Another wrench here
 

With respect,

The voluntary strike mechanic is a good idea. However, the MLBUM mechanics book is not the law for mechanics except in MLB/MiLB. And if the 2007 manual is the first one with it in, then a lot of good umpires are behind the times. I would encourage you good people who have the manual to bring this to the attention of the CCA guys (for example), and see if they will include it in the future.

I could see multiple big time discussions with a BU who uses this on a field today on many levels of baseball.

Bob nailed it. This needs to be pre-gamed.

While the MLBUM is a useful resource, I wouldn't go as far as to say it is the highest authority for amateur baseball. Your governing body or association is going to be the final authority on this mechanic. [Edit: I see jkumpire made that same point above me, I guess I missed it!]

If this is not a standard mechanic in your area, you can really put your crew in the jackpot if you come up with a swinging strike on an unsuspecting PU.

The next time I have a boring game with one of my buddies behind the plate, I may yell, "Yes he did" or "No, he did not" for no good reason. I think it would spice up the game a little!

Seriously, the only time I've ever used this is when the dugout is trying to get the catcher to appeal, but they can't get his attention. If I agree with the PU that the batter did not swing, I'll yell, "No, he did not" with the safe mechanic just to expediate the process.

I can see where this would be very helpful in certain situations with 2 strikes and runners on base.

cardinalfan wrote:
"Seriously, the only time I've ever used this is when the dugout is trying to get the catcher to appeal, but they can't get his attention. If I agree with the PU that the batter did not swing, I'll yell, "No, he did not" with the safe mechanic just to expediate the process."

Don't throw the PU under the bus on this. If the dugout can't get the catcher's attention, that's not the PU or BU's problem. If I am BU, everybody and their sister can ask if the batter went but unless the PU asks, I know nothing.

Yep, I see that.

I wasn't doing any of this. I admitted that it *can be* an accepted mechanic after Kevin's explaination. All I said was that it seemed odd that no one had mentioned it.

You can't pre-game everything. I have never heard this situation in pre-game from another umpire and it is not in my standard package to discuss. Sometimes you just have to go with your training, whatever that was. I work with a lot of guys that I don't know what their training was.

This must have been put in because the managers know the umps must get help if requested. On those big fields on a first or second strike those jerk-of managers immediately start screaming "get help". However, on a third strike that gets by their catcher, they wait until the catcher gets to the ball or gets back to the plate to start screaming "get help". Typical front-running MFSBDBCS rats.

One way to foil the coach is to ask the BU yourself, immediately, on a pitch in the dirt with two strikes, as covered in the PBUC manual.

Remember what jkumpire, Welpe, et al. have said: These manuals were written for professional umpires. They know what to do in cases like the ones we are talking about. At the amateur level, yes, I would say the "voluntary strike" mechanic should be well understood by you and your partner before the game, and there are umpires you might not want to use it with.

no

Does Voluntary Strike Exist?
 

I doubt the need for help exists. PU has responsibility here. The PU should make an aggressive call in this situation. Its just more acceptable to all parties involved. Do not place the BU in an unfair position. The PU having a superior vantage point to correctly adjudicate should never-never feel second-guessed.

I caution against using the voluntary strike mechanic more than once a season. It may be a useful backup mechanic when the PU is overwhelmed. That is where the problem in communication lies. Does the PU have to go for help immediately in this situation if he is on top of it?

How does it alter the play? The batter always thinks he checked in time. Are we to blame the umpires for failing him in this situation? It sounds like coaching to me. Do I care if he had a "fair" chance to run? No, because this is the same check-swing situation that occurs most frequently.

I say, if he swung and didn't run, he is at risk. The responsibility is placed on the 1B coach and his batter. The PU balls it. The defense ask for an opinion. Batter is out upon successful appeal. The timing of the appeal should not become a factor in determining the batter's status. JMOHO.