FED: What happens to R1?

voiceoflg · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 21, 2009, 09:55am

I saw this debated on a high school message board. None of the debators are officials, so I'll ask it here.

FED. R1, 1 out, 3-2 count. Hit and run is on but the batter checks his swing on ball 4. The catcher, goes through with the throw to 2nd and BU calls him out (not sure if this actually happened, but I'm just relaying the sitch from the other board). The catcher appeals the check swing and BU said the batter went around. Would R1 now actually be out because the ball clearly beat him and he was tagged out and called out by the 2nd base ump?

Personally I can't see the BU calling the runner out if he saw PU call ball four, even if the batter didn't hold up his check swing. Educate me, please.

bobbybanaduck · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 21, 2009, 10:28am

the only incorrect procedural thing is the actual out call by the BU. he should have noted the out mentally in case there was an appeal on the swing, then signaled the out after overturning the swing on appeal.

mrm21711 · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 21, 2009, 12:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

the only incorrect procedural thing is the actual out call by the BU. he should have noted the out mentally in case there was an appeal on the swing, then signaled the out after overturning the swing on appeal.

PBUC & Jaksa/Roder discuss this potential situation. I am not aware of any FED publication even discussing the instance.

In this case, BU must be aware that the runner's status (R1 in this example) can change retroactively. In the case of PU ruling a checked swing, Batter is awarded first and R1 moves up on the walk. However, if PU appeals the swing to BU and he rules a strike, the runner's (R1) status would then change and he is no longer forced to advance to second and can be tagged out, ect. In cases of a checked swing and a throw to second by the catcher, the BU should observe the play and observe/judge whether or not the runner was tagged before reaching the base. However, he will make no call. Should the PU then appeal the swing, BU will make his ruling. If BU rules a swing, he would indicate the swing and then turn to the runner (now on 2B) and emphatically rule him out.

UmpJM · #4 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 21, 2009, 01:44pm

mrm21711,

I believe FED Case Play 10.2.3H is relevant.

JM

mrm21711 · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 21, 2009, 02:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

mrm21711,

I believe FED Case Play 10.2.3H is relevant.

JM

Nice find. It appears FED & PBUC differ. I, for one, tend to disagree with the FED case play but such is life.

SAump · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Mar 21, 2009, 10:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

mrm21711,

I believe FED Case Play 10.2.3H is relevant.

JM

Surprised to hear the following passage was different from opinions expressed above. Will this web discussion become more descriptive? I'm interested in hearing more about the FED caseplay, with or without the inclusion of the dropped 3rd strike scenario.

bob jenkins · #7 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 22, 2009, 07:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAump

Surprised to hear the following passage was different from opinions expressed above. Will this web discussion become more descriptive? I'm interested in hearing more about the FED caseplay, with or without the inclusion of the dropped 3rd strike scenario.

FED has a rule to the effect that "the umpire shall rectify any situation where a decision that was reversed has place a team at a disadvantage."

So, when the call is changed from "ball" to "strike" on the check swing, if the offense was put at a disadvantage, then the out should be nullified. That usually happens when R1 is NOT stealing, but advances toward second on the "ball" call.

If R1 is stealing and is "thrown out", then there wasn't any disadvantage and the out stands.

NCAA and OBR do not have such a rule. The rules are written for older players and the players should know not to advance until the final decision has been reached.

yawetag · #8 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 22, 2009, 10:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If R1 is stealing and is "thrown out", then there wasn't any disadvantage and the out stands.

I have to agree. In the Case Book play given, the runner trotted after hearing the PU call "Ball Four." In the OP, the runner was stealing, so there was no disadvantage.

voiceoflg · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 23, 2009, 10:14pm

Thanks, all, for the responses. Thanks a bunch!

DG · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 23, 2009, 10:35pm

Back to the original question. R1 was running, he was not disadvantaged by PU decision. He was thrown out by F2. If subsequent appeal of check swing was a strike he is out, if not he is safe due to walk. As BU I call the runner out and wait for the check swing appeal from PU. If it happens, and I think the batter swung, two outs. If no swing, no outs. The only correction to make is if the runner, after being called out, is tagged off the bag, and subsequent appeal is ruled no swing. Then, the runner would be disadvantaged by the call by BU.

mbyron · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 24, 2009, 07:23am

Following the FED principle, you might also consider a correction if the runner pulls up and walks into 2B after hearing PU's "ball 4!"

nopachunts · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 24, 2009, 09:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron

Following the FED principle, you might also consider a correction if the runner pulls up and walks into 2B after hearing PU's "ball 4!"

When I am PU, only two people hear me call a ball, the batter and the catcher. On ball 4, I put a slight emphasis on "Ball". I never say ball 4, they are both big boys or girls and should know the count.