Correct FED balk mechanic?
 

I know from the blue PBUC manual that they teach the correct mechanic is to point "Thats a balk" and then to call time if there is no action that follows.

My question is under FED - is it correct to call "Thats a balk...Time" or "Time...thats a balk" while pointing?

"Time, that's a balk." In FED, nothing can happend after a balk. Unlike OBR.

I'm curious...why the difference? Why can something happen after a balk in OBR and not in FED? I'd love to pass it on to my listeners.

Thanks.

Sure, the hitter could hit a homerun.

Why the difference?...Well, the simple answer is that there is a rule difference between Fed and OBR.

I'll post one example below, however there are several instances where a play could occur after a balk in OBR.

Page 72 PBUC manual. If the balk is followed by a batted ball, leave the ball in play until it is apparent that the batter and all runners will not advance one base. At that moment, call "Time" and enforce the balk.

Hope that helps. Others will probably chime in as well.

In Federation ball it is an immediate dead ball.

OBR is, as already stated.

I always point and call "That's a balk" because it's transitional between leagues. If I throw my hands up (like when calling time) when I call a balk in FED, no problem. However, the habit may carry over into OBR season, which can put you in deep doo doo.

never say time 1st.. always " Thats a balk, time" that way the coaches know whats going on.

In FED, since nothing can happen after a balk, the balk basically kills all action and therefor basically has two meanings (balk and time) all wrapped into one. To make things more uniform, it would seem at all levels, just call 'that's a balk' and then add "time" right after if appropriate, FED-always, OBR, etc.-depends on the situation.

And while we are at it, why can baseball not take the lead and have a uniform set of rules and interpretations for all leagues, starting at the LL level all the way up, except for a few extra safety rules and substitution rules? Start with the OBR for the rules and interpretations and then just add in a uniform set of safety rules and substitution rules? (Dreamer, nothing but a dreamer, wasn't that a song?)

To answer the OP: yes, "Time! That's a balk!" is the "correct" FED mechanic, if you go by the FED umpire manual. I do not, however, know anyone who goes by the FED umpire manual. Everyone I know does it as you've been advised to do: always call out the balk first.

To answer voiceoflg: FED changed balk enforcement a long time ago in observance of one of their officiating principles: make officiating more uniform. In their view too many umpires failed to understand when the ball becomes dead after a balk. So to simplify it, they made the ball dead immediately.

OBR leaves the ball live after a balk in case the pitcher pitches it. This gives the offense a little edge, since the batter might hit it and score a runner. The rulesmakers wanted that to count, to provide even more disincentive against illegal deception by the pitcher. So if the batter and each runner reach their advance bases, the balk is ignored; otherwise, the umpire will call time at the end of playing action (which is often the pitcher standing there holding the ball looking confused) and enforce the balk.

Quote "And while we are at it, why can baseball not take the lead and have a uniform set of rules and interpretations for all leagues, starting at the LL level all the way up, except for a few extra safety rules and substitution rules? Start with the OBR for the rules and interpretations and then just add in a uniform set of safety rules and substitution rules? (Dreamer, nothing but a dreamer, wasn't that a song?)"
This is what is done in Canada. !!!

I used the official mechanic for the OP, under the impression that he was sharing his thoughts with non-umpires. I agree w/ the poster who work both FED and OBR...that there can be some confusion mechanically between the FED mechanic and OBR mechanic.

I firmly believe that, if the rules are not going to be uniform, all youth leagues should play by FED rules. Most kids are done playing after high school, so there's no reason to play under OBR ever in their playing days. But after PONY or LL, no kid is ready--rule wise--to play high school. I'm not sure which is dumber: having two sets of rules, or having pre-HS players playing by the official rules.

:D (I almost broke my chair laughing)

Time, That's a balk, start with the most advance runner and work your way around the diamond.

Actually, OBR's balk rule was the same as FED's, in regards to an immediate deadball, and they changed some time go. I'd have to check my notes, but I think it was in the 50's.

As an evaluator, I don't really care if you say "TIME, That's a balk" or That's a balk, TIME". Just as long as you get both statements in there, you do not get "gigged" on my sheet.

And I think that any argument about which is the correct statement is really making it stink! :rolleyes:

Straight from the FED umpire manual:

Balks: The umpire calling the balk shall point to the pitcher and call loudly, "That's a balk!". The ball is dead at the time of the balk. Umpires should signal a dead ball while calling out, "That's a balk!".

I don't see any requirement to say the word "time" at all.

But I'm kind of wondering how you both point AND raise your hands over your head at the same time! :confused:

What's a "FED umpire manual?"

It's a manual. For umpires. Issued by the NFHS.

Are you being purposely obtuse or have you never seen one of these?

I do, once every two years. Envelope to hands to a bit of humor to the trash.

I think he's just being funny and his group uses a different umpire manual.

That was the point of my question. I'd love to learn the history as to why the balk rules diverged. There has to be a reason someone decided the ball should be dead for a balk in FED and someone decided the ball should still be live in OBR.

My daughter is as bad as I am, always asking "why?"

They both had it as an immediate dead ball. Then, OBR realized that this just punished the offense for a defense's mistake. So, OBR changed the rule.

FED hasn't, probably (my opinion) because it would be "too confusing" for FED umpires and coaches (present company excepted, of course).

I think it would be less confusing to umpires to be same as OBR. I always assumed FED's interest in safety wanted this to be an immediate dead ball. A pitcher who has been trained to STOP when a balk is called is less likely to deliver a pitch that is driven back up the middle....

Thanks Bob & DG.

There are a fair number of quetions every year over the interwebs about what to do when there's a blak followed by a throw / pitch -- does the coach get an option? when does the play end? what if it's a balk on a feint to first followed by an immediate-but-separate throw to second? what if some runers advance, but not all? what if a runner misses the first advance base and is then out on appeal? etc.

(Yes, I know most of us on here know the answers to those questions)

There's no doubt that the "a balk is an immediate dead ball" is simpler.

Just like an INT at 2B on a FPSR, the "proper" mechanic would be to call time first - now everyone knows that nothing else can happen. Then point and call the balk and award. It would be "Time, that's a balk, you second base"

No I'm not using the FED manual. I'm basing this on NCAA clinics' (edit) proper mechanic for an immediate dead ball (like FPSR) and applying that same process here.

does it matter which way - not really. But I would think to be "proper" you should call time first.

Yes we can get into a habit of throwing our hands up and that will cause a doo-doo storm in an OBR sitch. That's what pre-game's for - go over the simple stuff and make sure we are thinking clearly and correctly. Then when there's a balk, we would point and let the play happen - avoiding the doo-doo on the fan.

Just my $.02 - that and a subway token wouldn't get you from Grand Central to Shey, but there it is.

Exactly, the most important thing is that you "call the balk". See way too many balks in FED every year that go uncalled.

Thanks
David

Interesting that an NCAA clinic would tell you to call TIME, THAT's A BALK, since it is not immediate dead ball in NCAA, it's like OBR. FED is the one that is different.

The proper mechanic, for all levels, is THAT's A BALK. For FED this means time is called, for NCAA and OBR it is delayed dead, depending on what happens with the pitch, if one is delivered.

Get your money back.

I apologize if that's the way it sounded. I was using the FPSR application from the clinic and moving it over into a similar immediate dead ball situation. I did not mean to imply that at the clinic they taught us to call time on the balk. That was not my intent.

I meant that we were told to call time first on the FPSR then relay the "foul." It would be the same in FED with the balk.

I see your point - but you didn't quote all of it - and that's not what I said, not what I meant to say anyway.

I started the post with a comment on the FPSR - it is an immediate dead ball - the proper mechanic is (as we were told) "(hands up) Time, (pointing) that's interference, out at second, out at first" - Translate that into a FED balk - kill it first

But thanks for misquoting and thanks for the advice.:confused:

FED mechanic, like all others, is to call the balk, calling TIME is not needed.

No, I didn't misquote. I copied and pasted your words. Edit? Sure.

Not being I mind reader, I didn't know what you meant, only what you said.

I apologized for it being poorly written. And I understand how it could be (was) misread. Yes those were my words and they were taken out of context - changed the meaning completely.

It's over and it's been clarified. - original post edited for clarity.

You'll have to ding me on the eval. I'm calling TIME first. It leaves no doubt that nothing else can happen. Not everyone knows the rules as well as we do - remove the question up front.

I agree to disagree on the definition of "proper."

FED has changed their umpire manual since the last time I looked at it.

Page 31, "Game Situations":

16) BALKS. The umpire calling the balk shall point to the pitcher and call loudly, "That's a balk!" The ball is dead at the time of the balk. Umpires should signal a dead ball while calling out, "That's a balk!"

That's the entire FED mechanic for balks.

That's different from OBR mechanic, at least the one that Jim Evans taught me. According to pro instruction, the umpire is to call out the balk when it occurs. Then let play continue until playing action has stopped. Then call time and, if necessary, enforce the balk.

Calling time is an essential part of the OBR mechanic, since the ball is not dead immediately upon the balk.

:rolleyes:

I was told by an clinician that in either case of the ball staying live (OBR,NCAA) or being dead (FED) that sometimes calling the balk a little louder goes a long way. He said that he had two reasons for it.

1. By being authoratative on the call, you show that you are 100% sure you saw a balk and it truly was a balk. You wouldn't have a weak call that may seem like you are unsure.

2. It tends to startle to pitcher to where he won't throw the pitch, or everyone freezes and then you can easily make your awards.

The downside is though in OBR where the ball is still in play, you could potentially harm the offense.

In my experiences everyone has just "frozen" no matter what level except for just one time. The pitcher balked in his throw to first base and overthrew the ball down the RF line. The ball is still live and the runner circled the bases. This is the only time when both teams didn't just stop playing, but the reason was the coach of the offensive team was also an umpire

That is flawed on several levels. It isn't your job to scare players to stop playing action. You should know what you are doing so any balk situation would be easy for you.

If you're calling a balk for the pitcher not stopping and you are trying to scare him into stopping then you have to call the balk really quick after he raises his free foot; if you take too much time you won't be able to stop him from pitching. So he doesn't stop and raises his free foot and you call the balk and then he ends up throwing to a base...what do you do then?

Trying to startle the pitcher into stopping is about as dumb as thinking proper timing means counting to two before announcing the call; both are techniques thought up by incompetent know nothings.

I saw a very good D1 ump this weekend call a balk by walking out from behind the plate calling it. Now that might be a strong call, but what if pitcher threw the ball? He would be way out of position.

A time when the pitch almost OUGHT to get delivered is in a non-FED game on a no-stop balk.

About twenty years ago, after calling "That's a balk!", only to see the lefty throw over to first, I immediately adjusted. Ever since, when F1 doesn't stop, I've waited to see the stride leg land toward the plate before calling the balk. By that time, the pitch is almost always getting delivered. And if he then goes to first, I've got a step balk.

What was the balk for? Maybe the ball was already dead, so the pitch "didn't happen."