+POS mask
 

I have seen on some baseball forums that the +POS Polymer Carbon Fiber Mask (SUL-200) was considered "dangerous". Anyone care to elaborate? Would it be OK to use it for fast pitch softball?

Comments?

They had problems with their first generation masks shattering. They reportedly solved this, but the problems created by the first wave of problems led to the demise of the company.

Steel I trust; plastic .... well.

knock on wood, i've been blasted a few times with mine and it's still ticking...

to answer your question...I would totally use it for softball...heck, aren't there people who don't even wear CP's when working softball?

please tell me that your joking, if you really believe that a fastpitch softball does'nt hurt you, my friend are clueless. i, also would not trust a carbon-fibre mask for any level of either baseball or softball.

steve

I'm pretty sure the SUL 200 will hold up to softballs, but why would you want this mask? The new Diamond, Shutt, Pro9 is just a light, and gives you a far superior look at the ball.

Heck, Champro is selling the same frame for under fiddy clams.

http://www.discountumpiregear.com/in...roducts_id=263

There's no reason, other than a collectors item, to buy the SUL. None.

Keeps on ticking
 

That was exactly the knock on the new SUL 100.
Supposedly, it was weakened by daily high/cold automobile "trunk" temperatures.
The mask retained its shape with no visible sign of damage after being repeatedly blasted.
At some point, the threshold of the mask buckled and an umpire's face absorbed part of the blow.
Word spread after several umpires suffered facial injuries.

Oh, brother.

I would not wear it for softball or baseball. If I would not wear something in a baseball game, I'm not going to use it in a softball game. And just because some old-timers don't wear a CP for fastpitch doesn't make it a good idea.

Facts...yes the Plus Pos mask is/was light. When introduced this was the selling point. In fact it was the ONLY selling point as the view was not nearly as good due to the large size of the bars. Since the intro of the P100 and P200 there have been many gains in mask weight with superior vision ie. the Nike, Mizuno, and Wilson titanium. However, that is NOT the reason Plus Pos went under. It was a basic business decision. If you look at all the other umpire gear available, they all have a parent company. West Vest is now distributed by Wilson (very unfortunate.) Honigs has all sports covered. Schutt, Rawlings, Spalding, etc... are multi sport. In fact Douglas recently stopped developing Umpire gear as it is just not profitable. In my opinion, Plus Pos made the best plate shoe ever made as mine lasted almost 10 seasons. Can't find that any more.

I was present when a SUL-200 failed and the umpire was severely injured. As I stated before, I immediately retired mine (backup mask).

I would wear it only as part of an umpire costume for Halloween.

Now that is a good line.

Not saying that it hasn't happend...but I've yet to read on here a story from a person who was personally injured wearing one of these +POS masks...we all have heard stories...but I guess I'm just surprised to not hear a 1st person account of how the mask failed.

Yes. They are called idiots. I would not be caught dead wearing inferior equipment while working fast pitch.

You've never been hit by one, have you?

I don't disagree...but there are all kinds of umpires who wear inferior equipment. If the guy was wearing the +POS for FED softball, I'm pretty sure he'd be safe. That being said...I am not a safety expert...so don't use my opinion to make your decision. (which, I don't think I have to worry about) :-)

umpire mask
 

I have 2 of these mask and have never had a problem. I have heard stories of umpires being injured with the older virson but Ihave used mine 10 seasons and I love it.

To each his own. I'll go ahead and opt for the mask constructed of the equally light but virtually indestructible titanium alloy over the ... ahem ... plastic.

But then, all it protects is your face and skull, which houses your eyes and brain, so it really depends on the things you're willing to put at risk.

Graphite is NOT plastic. Plastic is a super cooled liquid.

MTD, Sr.

I hear you. But to the layman, at first touch, it's plastic.

I'm an artist. We don't understand science real well. :)

(And anyone from Lake Erie knows more about super-cooled liquid than I will ever know. ;) )

Actually, if I had the cash and needed a new mask I'd take the titanium mask with the cool silver color over the ugly +POS composite made out of...whatever it's made of. :)

Personal Injury Lawyer
 

Are you looking hard enough?
Ozzy claimed he witnessed an injury.
People have claimed their new SUL masks were damaged.
It is clear the mask is defective and led to facial injuries.
I have yet to read a similar statement about any other mask.

nope, I haven't looked very hard. I'm sure we've all seen our share of dented masks (hence broken)...heck I've seen 3 myself...I'm not doubting Ozzy's statement...but of all the masks out there, not one "injured" person has personally posted on here...are there too few SUL users out there? maybe... but maybe it's blown a bit out of proportion?

I'm not saying anybody who claims to have witnessed an injury is lying by any means...but maybe they're not as dangerous as many are claiming??

Maybe they're all dead from the hit. They could also have become scared of the ball, and even thinking about being in an umpire forum makes them sweat.

I'd guess that the sampling here is fairly small in regard to the umpire world. If we were in a forum for vacuum cleaners and several people brought up how they've heard a certain vacuum cleaner stops working after picking up a fairly specific piece of dirt (let's say a blue marble with red stripes), what are the odds that someone there experienced it first-hand?

Furthering the simile, what are the chances that someone there picked up a yellow marble with blue stripes, but the problem didn't occur? Would you then doubt the claims?

I can fix that.

I got a concussion while wearing an SUL about five years ago in a 10 year old game. I was out for several weeks on that one. I'm pretty sure my WV would have just deflected the shot.

Did the SUL mask break and that was the cause of the injury? Was the mask an SUL 100 or 200? If it did not break did you use it again?

With all due respect, I believe that anyone could get a concussion with any mask under the "right" circumstances.

It must be a real p.o.s. mask if you can get a concussion from a 10-year-old.

did you turn your head?

All any mask can do is to try to minimize the user's odds of getting injured. No mask will be able to prevent all injuries.

A few years ago many people had denting problems with the +POS zero gravity mask. There was one prominent poster on this forum who used the zero gravity and said that he had taken numerous hard shots while wearing it and had experiences no denting at all. Then one day he got hit and the mask was severely dented. The shot he took wasn't really any different than the others he had taken previously, but it just struck the mask just differently enough to cause a huge dent. The same thing happens with injuries. One can go a long period of time without getting injured, that doesn't necessarily mean the mask is safer, but rather that the user has not yet taken that one unlucky shot yet. I could go buy the $500 HSM from Honig's and go work a 10 year old game and get injured in the first inning. Does that make it a terrible mask? No, as no mask can prevent all injuries.

I believe that the SUL mask is flatter than the Wilson so maybe the Wilson would have deflected the ball differently, but any shot to the head is dangerous and has the potential to cause injury.

So you require an injury to determine a mask's safety?

Yes, but I didn't cough. (no, I didn't turn my head, silly)

No, it didn't break.

The foul wasn't that hard, but I shouldn't have taken the brunt of that blow. IMO, the culprit was it's flat shape. It absorbed, as opposed to deflect. THAT was my problem with the SUL 100 I had. (That, and the huge planks you had to peer through)

No. Every shot a mask takes has the potential to dent the mask or to injure the user. A mask could get dented on the first blow it takes. That doesn't make it a bad mask as all masks (maybe not titanium masks) will dent if they are hit right. The right hit might be on the first hit the mask takes or the 100th.

The same thing happens with injuries. One could get injured using a mask then get a new one and then a 9 months have passed and he hasn't been injured again. That doesn't necessarily mean that the new mask protects better. It is quite possible that the old mask would have provided the same protection as injuries are freak things; they come up randomly. Of course some masks are better than others when it comes to dent resistance and protection but judging that by how long it takes to dent or to injure the user isn't the best grading system.

was your mask fitted properly? the only reason I'm pressing on your concussion from 10 yr old baseball is that I've been blasted w/ my SUL many times, at levels much higher than 10 yr. old ball and certain shots will always sting...but the mask has deflected...not to say it couldn't have happend to me (see LDUB's post) I guess I just never saw or heard of any injuries that occurred simply due to the fact they the ump was wearing the SUL, not that it couldn't have happened because you never know

Plenty loose. When I bend at the waist, I'll get the chin pad 2-3" off my chin.

Here's my point: A flat mask, like the ol' +POS SUL, will tend to absorb, as opposed to deflect, square shots. My blow was totally absorbed by the mask, as the ball fell at my feet.

It seems like the pads should be the thing we're discussing. Part of what makes it resilient to a blow is the constitution of the pads.

I had one like that with the titanium, and unlike the dynalite with the regular pads, the titanium with the wrap-arounds really made it much less jarring.

interesting points.

there's another site out there in cyberspace where a family member of +POS details the reasons for the company shutting down. Many good points made...

I think a lot it had to do with how squarely it hits you. You can take shots all day at your cheek bones, but one on the nose will ring your bell. The flatter the mask, the more you have a chance for a square shot, IMO.

With the HSM, the bad spot is the top of the forehead, as there's little padding there. Luckily, my All Star is fairly pointed at that spot, and I've only caught a couple flush ones.

Geez, I thought that was posted here.

I have seen two break - one of each generation. Fortunately no one was hurt (Ball didn't reach the face).

Tried one long ago & changed back after 1/2 an inning because the view was so bad (This was before I knew about the problems).

Stated by a family member on different forum, one of the things that killed +POS was lawsuits resulting from SUL mask failures/injuries.

i use mine for fastpitch h.s varsity and never had a problem! i use it for baseball also from 9-10year olds to american legion and never had a problem.taken plenty of shots over the years.im buying a HSM this year because i like the bottom area around the throat and adams apple area alot better.

Sul100 Vs Sul200
 

The Sul100 did have a design flaw. +POS was not the patent holder or the designer of the mask.

After the injury was reported to the designer, +POS was told there had been other injurys. +POS recalled the mask at the first reported injury.

A recall letter was sent to buyers. Buyers that moved, wanted to keep the mask or bought from a 3rd party and had no record did not recieve a replacement.

After the recall there were 5 additional reported injurys out of several thousand.

I spoke to a few competitors spreading rumors about the mask shattering, that is not true.

I witnessed the testing of several masks in a press. The ball was balanced on the mask frame vision bars. The press is lowered on the ball and pushed with force. The ball would go though any metal mask we tested as well as the SUL100. The Sul200 did the best, cut the ball and did not allow to go through the mask.

On a Pitching machine at 90 MPH from 4 feet the mask, the SUL100 and SUL200 preformed better then any other masks, not allowing a ball to go through.
EVERY metal mask we tested the ball went through the vision bars after 4-5 shots and denting the wire. I may do this again and post it on youtube, I will be sure to post it here.