Catch/No Catch
 

I was doing a game last summer and I was the BU. there were two outs and the batter hits a hard grounder to F1. F1 bobbles the ball and traps it against his chest and steps on 1st base. The B/R stops running and heads for the dugout. As soon as he stepped in the dugout I announce 'runner out for abandoning his base'. My partner complained that I should not have made the statement and just call the runner out. I stated that for the age group (U12), I was informing the coach and the score keeper the reason for the out. My partner stated let them come to me and ask the question if they needed information. I said for older kids I do but for younger ones they sometimes needed explanations so as not to do it again.

charlie,

The situation you present has nothing to do with "catch/no catch".

Also, technically, the abandonment rule does not apply to a BR before he reaches 1B; but that's really a technicality.

I probably would have just announced the out when I judged the BR out without giving the reason, but I doubt I would "complain" if my partner did as you did. But then, I tend not to hold "rules clinics" while I am officiating a game.

JM

the pitcher hadn't secured the ball by the time he got from the mound over to the bag? weird.

bobby,

Just "going with my gut" here, but I would be willing to lay even money that by "F1", charlie actually meant the 1st baseman.

Apparently, the F1 (whoever he was) did not gain secure possession until after he stopped touching 1B as well.

JM

I read it as the "F1" (really F3), having actually securely trapped the ball against his chest while he stepped on the base. What is the problem? Call the runner out! A fielder may certainly trap the ball against his body and still be considered in possession. I don't get the question.

Steve,

You might want to re-read the part of the rule(s) that says, "...hand or glove...".

JM

I agree with UmpJM, Steve-o...unless somebody changed the rule since 2004:confused:

Perhaps you are confusing a catch of a batted ball with this play?

MrUmpire,

While I would gladly stipulate that a batted ball might still very well be (oddly) "in flight" in the sitch posed (i.e. while "trapped" against a fielder's chest), I would argue that that same pesky "hand or glove" requirement must ultimately be met in the case of a "catch" as well.

JM

It
 

Of course you must have the ball in hand or glove to make a catch.

Steve - hand or glove needed for a catch

Charlie - Did you loudly call "safe" so the runner could hear it? I assume he went to the dugout after crossing first because didn't hear your safe call...

Absolutely
 

SAump is on the money...very good advice...besides...an out is an out, is an out, and so on, and so on:D

What I was referring to with my comment of a batted ball, was a bobbled catch trapped with the arm against the body, without the ball hitting the ground first, THEN being grabbed with the opposite hand.

I'm sorry if I misled you with my less than compete comment.

No, what I meant was trapped against his body with his hand. He was bobbling the ball, then trapped it against his chest. He never stated what he trapped the ball against his chest with. I just naturally figured (not assumed) that he was bobbling the ball, then at the last second trapped it between his glove or hand and his body. Which would be an out.

Perhaps we need the complete story. It seems like we are missing information.

you're not going to win this argument, sir.

I've said it for the past 2 years and I will say it again. Today's umpires are going BS over calling abandonment for some reason! I am beginning to think that making this call makes them feel like they are real umpires..... or maybe it's just an orgasm! :eek:

I've been officiating for almost 30 years and I have never made this call or heard a partner make it. Yet since around 2006, we have been getting post after post about this call. Has something changed or are we being over-run by Smitties?

IT was F! that 'trapped' the ball. Why he went after it and did not let F3 have it I don't know. At the last High School clinic I attended it was recommended that we make such calls. In 47 years of umpiring I have maybe called it 2 or 3 times and it has always been for young players. One of the regional clinics I went to they wanted us to be more vocal in our calls. I normally don't say much but am trying to accommodate the leagues requests.

Just thinking out loud here.

In you original post you were doing a summer U12 game (last year)and made this call. Now when questioned about why the heck you would even go there, (especially with 47 yrs experience), you tell us that your HS association asked that these calls be made????????????

Am I missing something here.????????????????

If I guy has a hand on the ball and the ball is pressed against his body, that's "trapped" until he shows me he really has it in his hand, or in another case, his glove. I hope that is what you mean

I was adding information. It was a summer u12 game. I am stating that the last High School clinic I went to we were ask to make our calls more verbal such as this one.

What argument? I'm not arguing. If a fielder traps the ball against his body with his hand or glove, and touches the base before the runner on a force, it's an out. No argument to be had.

Well, did the guy ever drop the ball? That's why I said that more information is needed. Yes, he would eventually have to "show me the ball" as I have said many times to ignorant fielders, but Charlie did not specify a) how the ball was trapped (was it in the crook of his arm, or between his tricep and his rib cage), or b) if the fielder had shown him the ball, or c) if the fielder dropped the ball. I only read that the ball was initially bobbled, then trapped just before he touched the base.

Steve,

Maybe you are using the word "trap" differently than I would.

If the fielder does not have secure possession of the ball in his hand or glove at the time of the tag, it's not a legal tag.

If he is using some other body part (e.g., his chest) to maintain possession of the ball, and would lose possession without it, he has not met the criteria for a tag (or a catch, for that matter).

JM

I am equating it to a low throw in the dirt that F3 "traps" between his glove and the ground. If he comes up with the ball in his glove, it's an out. If the ball gets left on the ground, it's not an out. Same logic applies: If he "traps" (Charlie's word) the ball against his chest with his hand or glove (my scenario) and then shows the umpire the ball in his hand or glove after pulling it away from his body (much like the ground in the first scenario), then he has proven possession. If the ball falls to the ground instead, then it is not an out, and I give the emphatic safe signal followed by the "double dribble" signal, signifying the bobbled ball. What I was saying is that not enough info was given to make a blanket statement that the out wasn't recorded at the base originally, with no "abandonment" or "disertion" or any other manufactured situation, just a plain-old force.

Not the same signal.

Double dribble signal: plams down.
Bobbled ball signal: palms up.

Your right! good catch. I had to do both just now to catch that myself!:)

Unless the fielder "double dribbles" the "bobbled ball" then its one palm up and one palm down.

Or just use the "palming" signal!

Great Rookie Umpire Info Here
 

Ball in the dirt within reach of F3. F3 "traps" the ball between his hand or glove and the ground before B/R touches 1B. F3 hasn't clearly demonstrated possession by "lifting" the ball off the ground when B/R touches 1B.

Safe or out? "If he comes up with the ball in his hand or glove, it's an out. If the ball gets left on the ground, it's not an out." This play happens quite frequently during the season.

No, I disagree
 

No, that's not true. If he has it trapped up against his body with his hand, glove, or any other body part (Picture that!!!), and the runner touches the bag before he, for lack of a better word, "un-traps" it (I know, poor English), he's not out. This is rule 2.00, definition of a "tag", which is how a runner is put out:

A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with hishand or glove holding the ball, while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove.

So if a guy has a ball "trapped," which is what you described, against his body with his hand or glove, how can you "securely" trap it for the out?

it's just like i already said.