You make the call
 

In HS or HS age level game, I have the runner safe and then ejected. His intent wasn't to just reach the plate safely. He wanted to take someone out.


Tim.

In HS level, yes. However, these looked like smaller kids, so it's possible he hasn't perfected the fine art of sliding.

Safe in all codes. No ejection. Possibly a discussion with the player and / or coach about sliding.

Happy New year, Tim. :)

Why would the kid be ejected ?
What did I miss ?
He slid late, though a little late.
Thanks.

:D

I'm sorry, but that kid was just doing a late plate slide. He wasn't trying to take anybody out. If a seasoned player slides that late and makes contact, there's a different situation. But if a seasoned player sticks a straight leg slide a little earlier, and clears the catcher out of the way below the knee, that's good baseball. That's how it's supposed to be taught and executed. But this kid needs sliding lessons like the man said.

I have nothing

Looks to me like the kid forgot he was playing baseball, not martial arts. I agree with Mr. Jenkins; ejection unwarranted, but a word to the player or coach.
Then I would buy some plate shoes, turn my hat around, and learn to remove my mask with my left hand. :D

And maybe not walk right into the catcher's path.

I stand by my initial assessment. This wasn't a late slide, in my opinion. The runner left his feet a full 10'-12' up the baseline and intentionally attempted to kick at the fielder attempting to make the play. I'm not going to allow it in a game I'm working. Players


Tim.

I have watched it 10 more times and it gets a little worse every time. I am leaning more toward your side---a lot more.

Like you, I would also have a very low tolerance and a stern warning issued to the coach. That guy leaped into the air.

Agreed. This would be a "talk to" situation

There should be an ejection
 

Geez,

Eject the PU:
Interferes with F2,
Hat on backward,
Takes mask off with wrong hand,
"Flapping wing" safe signal,
Doesn't brush plate, uses foot to clean it.
Looked like Black hat with old style light blue shirt;
and if I looked again I could probably find more nits to pick.
Worst thing, he looks bored out of his mind, like he doesn't want to be there.

Those too-cool-to-look-like-they-want-to-be-there young umpires all need to shape up or go away until they grow up. The guy in the video is a perfect picture of everything that's wrong with these leagues that take umpiring so casually.

:(
I have seen that alot.
But I think it is more useful to give a younger/newer umpire advice and time to grow.

Im not gonna EJ the runner, but i will talk to him, he didnt slide with his leg up as to take somone out, yes his slide was high and ugly and late but I didnt see again wrong. JMO

Advice is dismissed, because the young player/umpire knows all he needs to know about playing and umpiring. He needs to go away until he grows up.

There are those who heed advice of course, and those guys I help to no end with advice, equipment, accessories, uniforms, etc. I've done my part, and there are many young guys who are right for umpiring and can and should be brought along.

But the guys like the guy in the video and most of the ones who look like him are not open to advice or criticism and should go away before they hurt the vocation and the game any more than they have.

Watch it nine more times. It looks more and more malicious each time.

Oh, my.

Safe, no ej. I've seen this "hop-slide" at lower levels before. I put it in the same realm as diving headfirst into first base. No matter how stupid it is, some people are still going to do it.

Why do you think people show up day one to watch their kids play ball in high school with a dreadful opinion of umpires and the vocation? Half the hell we catch from those clown parents is because of prejudices that are formed watching slouches like that guy.

More clinics; more mentorships; more equipment; higher fees; more responsible supervisors---those are some of the things that are needed.

How can you possibly justify an ejection. He slid between the catchers legs and hardly made contact. Looks to me he was trying to avoid contact. I've got nothing.

The runner didn't slide at all, and that's the problem. He tried to make a flying jump kick at the play in order to break up the possibility of being tagged. It was only out of luck that the pitcher, not the catcher, wasn't injured on the play. I never once mentioned that I would eject the runner for MC. But for unsportsmanlike conduct, he's done for the day in a game I'm working. I don't understand how you would allow such crap in a game. If you leave this alone, there's bound to be an amount of retaliation coming.


Tim.

I really don't think about dreadful opinions very much. If the shoe don't fit, I ain't wearing it. If it fits, it must be mine.
I cannot be silent when I see one of those guys wallow away without some sort of assistance, assistance which was rarely offered to me by umpires that didn't wish to make me uncomfortable, or by umpires that just didn't care.

I have come around completely.

I think that you touched on an important aspect of a play like that.

The guy does a Ty Cobb on a guy trying to make a play--he goes. Malicious intent is unsportsmanlike whether it yields contact or not.

The closest thing I ever had to a borderline EJ for peace purposes was a R2 whose hard slide into the plate on a single dumped the catcher on top of him--perfectly fine. But as they lay there for a second, R2 gives the catcher a two-arm GTF off me kind of shove (without saying GTF off me). In the split-second before he gave him a second shove, I had decided to warn the guy and leave him in the game. But he gave the catcher a second two-hand shove (harder than the first) and I tossed him on the spot for the very reason that I could not allow the other club to retaliate for my failure to act.

Okay, you are obviously not reading everything before you respond.

I have the thickest skin possible. It's not a complaint, it's an observation. And mostly, the shoe doesn't fit. That's the point you missed by crafting your folksy slogan before getting the message.

Some kids know it all and don't accept help. It's the first time they've been put in charge of something and they go nuts with it and it takes over their ability to be humble and accept discipline or instruction. The game needs to do a better job of training players and umpires. It's a borderline disgrace. But when the game allows slouches like this to continue to infect it just to save a few bucks, it's pathetic.

There's a league around here that has three current major leaguers and a current major league umpire that all played there in the 1990s. The league is full of wealthy families as well as their major league graduates. They allow umpires like the slouch in the film routinely and allow some of the most slovenly and lazy and disrespectful umpiring you'll find. They have state-of-the-art facilities and equipment, and a full restaurant for a snack shack, but they do nothing about having decent umpiring. It's shameful.

FED - Safe and ejected (Malicious Contact)

NCAA - Safe and ejected (FPSR)

OBR (youth leagues) - Safe and ejected (unsportsmanlike conduct)

OBR MLB - Safe (He's going to get one in his ear at the next at bat)

It is my opinion (and in a game, that is all that counts) that the runner had every intention of taking out F1 at the plate. Contact is not necessary, it is how the runner presents his intentions. Had the runner not jumped into the air, there would be no problem in all codes.

I hope your high horse bucks you off instead of me asking you to get off it. You don't know the situation with these games.

Why is it that "established" umpires always want to pick apart someone because of thier appearance, mechanics, etc. especially at low level games? Where I live, there is hardly any training that is substansive for the umpires that are already in the game let alone new guys. Instead of taking this kid aside and telling him how bad he looks, help him out and train him. You don't like his appearance, give him one of your shirts. You don't like how he clears the catcher, show him. When was the last time you visited a baseball game in a non-umpire capacity and offered your advice to a new umpire?

Finally, if you are getting grief because you believe that undertrained umpires are influencing the observers, then it is probably not the fault of that poor unfortunate undertrained umpire, it is you.

That's what I have too. If you want to leave him in the game (other than OBR/MLB), fine, but "having a word" with him is asking for trouble. Either it was a legal slide or it wasn't. Having a word with him will bring an argument from the DC as to why he wasn't dumped.

Ozzy...the FPSR in NCAA pertains only to a force play situation at any base, regardless of the number of outs. So in that aspect how do you have him out for FPSR? Please believe me I'm just asking as I have always like your comments.

Watched it about 10 times and he started to slide before the batters box, yes he jumped, but I don't think it was malicious, and this is just my opinion nothing more.

I just saw it for the first time. What i saw was a player leaping into the air before the batter's box and actually beginning to "slide" at the plate.

I'm not getting grief. I usually get what I deserve. And it's almost always positive, because I am almost always early, ready, hustling, authoritative, responsible and in adherence with the codes and standards of umpiring, because I love the game, and the umpiring profession. You are not judging me fairly at all.

And if you don't think that youth umpiring forms high school parents' opinions of umpiring, then you are not really judging that fairly, either.

After reading this thread again, I want to publicly appologize to Kevin Finnerty for my quick assumptions. Maybe I need to look in the mirror.

It just gets tiresome hearing about these young umpires being the bane of our existence. My first umpiring gig happened when I was 17. They needed umps and I said sure. They handed me gear, balloon and all, and said have at it. This was for 15-16 year old "teener" ball, pre-legion. Top of the line baseball for that age in my area. Who is to say that this still doesn't happen? When we see these you-tube clips, we have no other information to base our opinions on, yet we go right after them.

P.S. I have nothing from the clip. My first impression after seeing it was that sliding needs to be incorporated into their practices. I would have had the coaches ear, privately, and let him know that they need to get down sooner. The first impression counts for me, cause that is all I would have had, had I been forced to make an immediate ruling.

I can either eject him under FPSR or 8-7's Collision rule. Because the runner jumped and threw his legs out, he's a dead duck even with minimal contact. Remember, even in NCAA, safety is still a high priority. Will I get into a "discussion" with the player's HC? Probably! :rolleyes:

e

I've got nothing. Where's the malicious contact? If you eject for intent be ready to eject the head coach as well.

If you eject and site FPSR are you calling the batter out as well? By rule you have to. Since there's no malicious contact how can you eject? Under all codes I've got nothing.

Ozzy i can see kind of where in the FPSR you can get him... Illegal slide. But in the Collision rule it says that the fielder MUST have possesion of the ball. but in 8-7b.a.r. If the base runner collides flagrantly, the runner shall be declared safe on the obstruction, ( which there was none on this play) but will be EJ from the Contest. The ball is dead.. SO I can kind of agree with you, but I still think he was just being stupid... Would this happen in a College or higher game? No cause the players are smarter and are more worried about getting hurt.

YEs your right about the EJ in FPSR but this was a passed ball and the batter was not a batter runner, so that would be tough to sell to the OC.

THANK YOU!

Very classy. And no need to look in the mirror.

We really can pick this PU apart but why? Strong possibility these kids would not be playing if not for this volunteer. Many youth Leagues rely totally on volunteer umpires to keep participation fees affordable for everyone. Now, if I knew for a fact that he was collecting a game fee, I believe I would have more a problem with the instructional chair of his group than the ump. Just my dos pesos.

If you'll look earlier in the thread you'll see that I made mention that I wouldn't eject him for MC. I would eject him for unsportsmanlike conduct. If the manager doesn't like it, he can join the player in the parking lot. If you look closely at the clip and pause it just as the runner is over the plate, you'll see that the only thing that kept the pitcher from getting spiked is the toss from F2 forcing him to lift his glove at the last second. A runner doesn't jump two foot in the air, ten feet from the plate, and try to land on a fielders glove without malicious intent.


Tim.

The league that I referred to is in an affluent area, does pay its umpires, and does have an instructor/supervisor. And still these kids who have little or no respect for the game are thrown out there with little training and orientation to stain the diamond just to save a buck.

The same parents for whom the leagues are trying to keep things affordable are the first people to complain about how horrible the umpiring is. It's a joke. If the priority is keeping the playing fees low, then the priorities are skewed.

That makes no sense. There is no one on first or second base so R3 could not be forced and on top of that there isn't even a batted ball. The FPSR has nothing to do with this at all.

I have him with malicious intent before he lands.

So, no run. :D

I think the penalty is ejection, but not an out. Under FED, if the runner initiated malicious contact before he scored he would be declared out, but that's it. You would need INT to get an out in NCAA or OBR, and that's clearly not the case here.

No, I doubt that NCAA players would try something like this. And the more that I think about it, FPSR is not an option in this scenerio. So I will nail him with simple Misconduct and still get rid of him.

You see, no matter what you guys argue, I am dumping this player unless he has a Contract in the Bigs! ;)

If you're going to judge intent, the point in the clip that matters is the situation at the point the runner jumped. At the time of the jump, the ball is on the ground, the pitcher has just arrived at the plate, straddling it with his heels in the LH batter's box, and his glove is at waist height. The runner's landing point is short of the pitcher, and is actually on the third base half of the plate (front leg).

I see nothing more than youthful exuberance here. I do think the jump should be discouraged, because the runner has no control once he leaves the ground, but no rule is being broken.