Out or ?

reed2310 · #1 (**permalink**) Sat May 18, 2002, 07:54am

Base's loaded, ball four to batter, runner coming home misses home plate and continues to dug-out. No appeal & play resumes. My question is should i signal safe if the runner touches home. Since the runner did not touch home i stood ther looking at home plate, the catcher gets back in his position so i assume my position and we play ball. In my opinion it is the catchers job to catch that on a walk. Please correct me if i am wrong. I value your all's opinion

Rich Coyle · #2 (**permalink**) Sat May 18, 2002, 08:20am

We are umpires, not coaches. It is not our job to do any more than to officiate the game. If we signal "safe" on one walk and not on the next, we have taken the onus to observe base runners off of the defense.

While I regularly communicate with hand signals with my partner and occasionally verbally, I still subscribe to the "invisible" umpire school of thought -- do not take on any more responsibility thatn you have to.

Marty Rogers · #3 (**permalink**) Sat May 18, 2002, 09:01am

On a base on balls, all runners who are forced, advance to
their next base without liability to be put out (provided they advance and touch said base), therefore, you do NOT have to call them safe. (Imagine the BU calling all these advancing runners safe at each base.) It is up to the defense to put on the tag if he misses the base (or plate).
Then you WOULD have to make the OUT call.

This is also a no call on a tag play at the plate until the runner touches the plate, or is tagged by catcher. So, if he overruns home (doesn't touch) and there is no tag, you say nothing until one of those things happen. If neither of those things happen, and the runner goes to dugout, and catcher doesn't appeal that he missed home, the run scores.

Bfair · #4 (**permalink**) Sat May 18, 2002, 03:52pm

Quote:

Originally posted by reed2310
Base's loaded, ball four to batter, runner coming home misses home plate and continues to dug-out. No appeal & play resumes. My question is should i signal safe if the runner touches home. Since the runner did not touch home i stood ther looking at home plate, the catcher gets back in his position so i assume my position and we play ball. In my opinion it is the catchers job to catch that on a walk. Please correct me if i am wrong. I value your all's opinion

Was there reason to believe he may have been out?
If not, then why signal safe?
If they saw the miss, they will appeal it, but he wasn't out prior to the appeal, and there was no attempt made upon him, correct?

Just my opinion,

Freix

PeteBooth · #5 (**permalink**) Sat May 18, 2002, 04:36pm

Originally posted by reed2310

Base's loaded, ball four to batter, runner coming home misses home plate and continues to dug-out. No appeal & play resumes. My question is should i signal safe if the runner touches home. Since the runner did not touch home i stood ther looking at home plate, the catcher gets back in his position so i assume my position and we play ball. In my opinion it is the catchers job to catch that on a walk. Please correct me if i am wrong. I value your all's opinion

If the defense does not make a play say Nothing. The runner beat the play. We only make calls when it warrents it. For example; R1, F1 in the set and throws to F3. If F3 simply catches the ball and does not apply any sort of tag or tag attempt, I say nothing.

The runner is SAFE until prooven he /she is out. As far as the first base mechanic is concerned, we signal safe (when runner beat the throw but misses the base) because there was a play. A play is defined as the defense making an attempt to retire a runner.

Pete Booth

brandda · #6 (**permalink**) Sat May 18, 2002, 06:54pm

It is the defense's responsibility to notice this, not yours to point it out to them. Say nothing. Only make a ruling when a ruling is there to be made.

Gee · #7 (**permalink**) Sun May 19, 2002, 06:11am

The bases were loaded. That makes the play at home a force play.

Proper mechanics on a missed base force play is to call the runner safe, just like at first.

On a NON force play you make no signal. So if your going to signal the missed base at first as safe you should also signal safe for the missed base FORCE play at the plate for consistancy in your mechanics. I do neither. G.

soonerfan · #8 (**permalink**) Sun May 19, 2002, 10:22pm

Quote:

Originally posted by reed2310
Base's loaded, ball four to batter, runner coming home misses home plate and continues to dug-out. No appeal & play resumes. My question is should i signal safe if the runner touches home. Since the runner did not touch home i stood ther looking at home plate, the catcher gets back in his position so i assume my position and we play ball. In my opinion it is the catchers job to catch that on a walk. Please correct me if i am wrong. I value your all's opinion

It depends on the level and it's rules, I think. I have not worked a HS game in a while, but I think that if a runner misses a base that they are called out once the play ends. You did not specify the level you were doing, but you may want to go back to the federation rules book. JOHN

PeteBooth · #9 (**permalink**) Sun May 19, 2002, 10:32pm

Originally posted by soonerfan

I have not worked a HS game in a while, but I think that if a runner misses a base that they are called out once the play ends.

Not true. FED changed their appeal rule this year. Last year you would have been correct. This year the defense has to appeal a missed base.

Pete Booth

soonerfan · #10 (**permalink**) Mon May 20, 2002, 12:15am

Quote:

Originally posted by PeteBooth
Originally posted by soonerfan

I have not worked a HS game in a while, but I think that if a runner misses a base that they are called out once the play ends.

Not true. FED changed their appeal rule this year. Last year you would have been correct. This year the defense has to appeal a missed base.

Pete Booth

I thought that was the way it used to be and still was, however I have not worked a HS game in over 2 years. I plan on doing some summer ball and a lot of schools have done away with American Legion :-( and have gone to a HS summer league :-( Good to know. Thanks. JOHN

ENelson · #11 (**permalink**) Mon May 20, 2002, 10:23am

If there is no play, do nothing. I see many guys pointing at home plate when a runner scores. What happens if the runner misses the plate and there is no point? Did the umpire just signal to the defense there was something wrong? Is this creating an unfair situation for the offense?

I only signal if there is a play being made on the runner. If there was a tag play and the catcher missed the tag, yet the runner also missed the plate, I would signal safe. A play is being made and there is a call to be made. If the runner goes on to the dugout then the defense can appeal or a tag can be made or the fielder can make an appeal by touching the plate and appealing the missed base. At that time another call is necessary for the appeal.

brumey1107 · #12 (**permalink**) Mon May 20, 2002, 05:42pm

If you signal safe on a play where catcher misses tag and runner misses plate it would seem you are creating an unfair situation for the offense? IMHO I would not signal safe or out as neither has occurred.

Patrick Szalapski · #13 (**permalink**) Tue May 21, 2002, 01:15pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Gee
The bases were loaded. That makes the play at home a force play.

Proper mechanics on a missed base force play is to call the runner safe, just like at first.

No way, Gee. We would never signal safe in ANY instance unless there is reason to believe the runner might be out.

In the play to which you allude (BR grounds to short, beats the throw but misses the base), we signal safe because the runner was not put out by the throw, and everyone is expecting a call. If the runner beat the throw by several steps, yet missed the base, I would make no signal, just as in any other case where it was "obvious" the runner was not put out.

Also, the play at first above is not technically a force out.

In the case of a tag play, we make no call because the play is not over yet. The runner is in jeopardy, but is not out. He usually remains so for quite a long time.

P-Sz

BJ Moose · #14 (**permalink**) Tue May 21, 2002, 01:33pm

Since when is ANY signal ever given at home after a bases loaded walk?? Touch or no touch?

soonerfan · #15 (**permalink**) Tue May 21, 2002, 07:21pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BJ Moose
Since when is ANY signal ever given at home after a bases loaded walk?? Touch or no touch?

I have called a number of games where a runner crosses the plate with no play there and noticed that they never touched. All I do is think to myself..."Hmm, he never touched the plate...dummy." If the catcher does not see it, too bad...let's play. Heck, I played shortstop and if I was covering second on anything and a runner passed me I always looked at the bag to see his touch. I cought a few in my day. JOHN