Base Umpire Warning Pitcher
 

Have you ever, or would you ever, warn the pitcher about throwing at a batter if the plate umpire did not. I have been thinking about a situation in the last game I worked last year. It was a tournament game (15-16 year olds) and we were working 4-man, I was at 3B. I was senior man on the crew with one of our top guys behind the plate.

Here's the situation. Top of 6th inning, home team, clearly superior, winning about 8-1. Losing team has man on 2nd with 2 outs when defense pulls off the old trick play. Pitcher turns, fakes a throw to 2nd, defense reacts as though ball is in CF. Runner goes to 3rd where he is easily tagged out. Manager of offensive team is furious, at least partly out of embarassment. He was coaching 3rd and he got fooled on the play, yelling for his runner to come to 3rd. But also, in my opinion, angry at the other team for pulling that play in such a one-sided game. He thought it was bush and I agree.

Sure enough, bottom of the 6th, a batter from the winning team gets plunked. Nobody seemed to have a problem with that, and I really didn't either - old school baseball. However, since the home team's pitcher threw very hard and most of the batters seemed overmatched, I thought my PU would warn both teams - in effect protecting the losing team. I waited but he did nothing. I knew a warning should have been issued but I felt funny coming in from 3B to issue one - I thought I might be showing up my partner. The home pitcher did throw at a batter in the 7th - fortunately he missed the batter and there were no more fireworks. I thought we were very lucky that nothing further came from this situation. Good umpiring could have and should have prevented the situation and we did not umpire those situations well. We were very lucky that we did not have a brawl. When I talked to my partner after the game, he just brain locked. He totally forgot about the trick play and did not realize how upset the losing team was.
I know I should have gone in to talk to him between innings, perhaps after the trick play, but definitely before the top of the 7th.

I have decided to make this a topic of discussion in my pre-games next year. I'm not sure how I would feel as a PU if my partner on the bases came in to issue a warning in a game I was working. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this matter. What would you do as the base umpire? How would you feel if you were the plate umpire and your partner issued a warning?

Chris Wright
Brooklyn, NY

As BU I would NEVER usurp the PU's responsibility and authority in such an issue. As PU I doubt if I've ever worked with anyone who'd even have such a thought.

I will never say never, but I cannot think of an occasion in which BU should warn a pitcher for throwing at a batter instead of PU. It's not so much an issue of jurisdiction in the instant infraction, but more so setting up your partner for failure on any future ones. In your case, there wouldn't have been an issue, as it was a brain fart on PU, but you had no way of knowing that at the time. Let's think about it this way--if a warning had already been given, would you have done the ejection? Of course not, since it's going to beg the question of why PU didn't. Now you've put him in the position of either backing you up on your judgement (and look incompetent) or disagreeing with you (and throwing you under the bus under which you just threw him.) In short, if it's not your job to toss, it's also not your job to warn.

You did the right thing. If there was someway of jarring PU's brain cells loose in a timely manner, I think that would be acceptable, but I can't see a way that would also appear to be visible prompting on your part.

OTOH, I see no problem with BU tossing a battery and/or manager for throwing at PU--often he's going to have a better look at what both of them did in conjunction. In fact, in a men's tournament game this year, I got slammed with an inside fastball that had no chance of being caught nor even touched. Given the way the play played out, I was able to have a quick conference with my partner regarding the pitch with no one the wiser--he stated that it simply appeared to be a cross-up. (Before anyone starts a rant about men's amateur ball, in six seasons of doing it I have found the teams around here, with two exceptions, to be incredibly well-behaved and self-disciplining.)

Given that, I agree with the others that you should not give the warning. Change it to "I was senior man with a first year umpire behind the plate" and I might have a different answer.

I agree that you can go in to talk about it between innings -- just to be sure all umpires are on the same page.

That's what I was thinking. In some circumstances (game about to get out of hand, rookie with that deer in the headlights look) I could even envision interrupting the game to come in and talk to him about issuing a warning.

I wouldn't tell him what to do: I would report what I saw and the likely consequences of not warning. It's up to him to decide based on this information. Even rookies deserve respect.

Ask him in between innings "What He Saw" on that 'trick play'. :confused: That is ALL I would have asked him.

I'd check my uniform for tire tracks. :mad: Then visit the Assignor/Scheduler to be sure I don't have any more games with this Fella. :cool:

IMHO

Had there been a suggestion of retaliation or excess testosterone, I MAY have had a very short conversation with the PU between innings about keeping things in check. Up to him from there.

The COULD change if someone other than the PU was designated as crew chief. Some organizations want the warning to come from the CC regardless of who is PU.

This would be a tough situation to make the call as a BU. But if you have a game where your partner is clueless and you feel that by not jumping in things could get worse, you should bite the bullet and do it. This is just a no win situation.

[QUOTE]I agree with the others but what you can do as BU is

get the attention of your partner as the kid is going to first base. In other words hopefully by simple eye contact the PU is now alert to what is going on and "can take care of things"

Also, I know as BU we should head to right field after the inning but this might be a good time to have a little chat with the PU between innings because as you say a "brawl" is just waiting to happen.

Pete Booth

Rich I agree but in a way this could be similar to the following:

R2 BU in "C"

Ground ball to F6. R2 clearly interferes (by clearly interferes I mean a TEXTBOOK interference call) with F6 in his attempt to field a batted ball.

Your partner the BU is "right there" looking at the same thing as you the PU but gives no call.

We all know any umpire can call interference but in general on play's at the bases we defer to our partner's judgement, however, this is a TEXTBOOK interference call.

Aren't you as the PU going to call it?

I think the answer is yes which brings me back to this OP.

Let's assume F1 for the losing team had outstanding control all game long, even though he was on the losing side of the score (there could have been a variety of reasons). When he missed he missed by inches.

Now he Plunks someone. At this point one can assume that the ENTIRE park KNOWS what's going on and yet your partner the PU says NOTHING.

IMO, this crew is now "asking for it" since NO-ONE took control and should a brawl develop IMO the ENTIRE crew now looks bad not just the PU.

Therefore, in what I call a TEXTBOOK Plunk by F1 wouldn't you as BU now say something to avoid what is most likely to transpire next if your partner the PU says nothing.

Pete Booth

So....the guy has "outstanding control" all game, then he hits one batter and you as the BU are issuing a warning? I don't see how this meets the definition of a "TEXTBOOK Plunk", whatever that is.

And how do you mess up the quote every time you quote someone? All you have to do is click the quote link and then type what you want to put below the quote :confused:

Not me, Pete. I'm not going to eat my partners lunch here. Unless I'm working with a brand spanking new umpire, no way I make this call as a PU. Perhaps his definition of "textbook interference" and mine are different.


Tim.

In regards to the OP- to quote Tim C in his valuable article "10 things a Base/Plate umpire should not do"...

"As the PU you OWN the pitcher and the catcher."

In the op... I as the BU am not gonna saying anything to my partner. Now maybe between inning I might go and talk to him and tell him to umpire the game as well. and to be aware of situations like this.

Agreed. This is an experience thing.
Need to see this and to be aware.

I think the level of ball(15-16) is on the cusp...meaning, most of these guys playing aren't aware to "go after" a batter ..unless you have a knowledgable coach.

To the OP, you can cover this in a pre-game, but it won't come across the same unless it actually happens...

IN this play Pete... I would call time and go and talk to my partner and ask him if maybe he saw? anything?....and then I might give him my advice/ ruling on the play. But i really think that in this type of play the most important thing id to get the call right.

I had a college showcase tourny this year, Championship game Im PU and we are in 3 man. NFHS rules. We had a R1 and 1 out. ground ball to F4 who threw to F6.. R1 made no attempt to move away from the play, . or slide, made contact with F6's arm on the throw to 1st so we had FPSR right?.. well U3 who was standing in the "C" position saw the hole play and called nothing. I as PU was coming up 1st baseline to cover any type of pulled foot swipe tag kept running and started to talk to U1 about the play and we both had FPSR. So we had said well" we can't make the call for him as he needs to come to us and talk to us about the play. about 30 sec later he see's us standing there and comes over to talk to us, and ask " Did i miss something?" So we told him our answers and what we would call, but he had to make the call at 2nd.

Exactly. Or maybe he might be able to see a look of "Oops!" on the pitcher's face, or any of a myriad of clues indicating a lack of intention on the pitcher's part which are not visible to a BU.

[quote=ldub;553214]Re-read the OP

Apparently you did not play the game

There was an incident in the previous inning which prompted F1 to do what he did.

You do not need to be a Rocket Scientist to figure it out. EVERYONE except the PU knew what was going on.

This particular game went without further incident but just as easily could have developed into something ugly.

Pete Booth

So what? Deal with it if and when it turns ugly. If BU issues this warning, then it WILL turn ugly (you'd know that if you played the game.) There will be a justifiably upset defensive manager wondering why BU poached PU's call, and PU is going to have to go back to that dilemma I stated earlier. The defensive manager is also going to need an explanation as to why BU is talking to his pitcher when it's not his place.

Let's erase everything here except BU's point of view--he judges that the pitch was intentionally thrown at the batter. PU doesn't issue a warning. Occam's Razor indicates that PU probably had a reason not to do so, and not that he had a brain fart. BU has no way of ascertaining it. BU needs to stay off PU's call.

What you suggest is patchwork umpiring at its finest. Let PU handle the battery as he sees fit--if he has a brain fart and doesn't warn, it's not the end of the world.

...and oh, yes, there will be a post game discussion expounding upon everyone's point of view. If the the PU says, "Oops", then end of discussion.

JJ

Yes, and have done so.


I'm not poaching his call unless he's an inexperienced Official (whom do not get too many Tournament Games around here). I will visit him and ask about the 'Textbook Plunk by F1' and subsequent observations just to raise awareness.

To be fair to your point, I have had calls poached as BU & PU and with the exception of a brain burp on my part, did not like the feeling. With that brain fart, I was appreciative my partner had been more observant than I and had caught the call.

FWIW

I understand what Pete Booth is saying here. F1 has great control, then a taunt, a HR, a successful suicide or squeeze, then F1 plunks B1. But there are still things that have to be considered here.

Was the pitch a fastball or an errant breaking ball? As many professional pitchers have stated, "If I'm going to intentionally nail someone, he is getting my fastball, right in the ribs!". It is nearly impossible to control a breaking ball enough to drill a batter (but I am sure there are those who will argue this point). Now in most cases, the BU is not looking at the pitch as closely as the PU is (or should be). Last of all, the four times in my career that I dumped a pitcher, I was 98% sure that he was looking at the batter and not his target (which is F2). This the BU cannot see, and I don't care how good you think you are, a BU cannot tell were F1 is throwing the ball! Only the PU can see this.

So I say that even if the situation is right, and F1 does the deed, it is the PU's job to take care of this problem. The BU has to back up the PU and help keep order. I do not agree with the BU calling this. If you are working with a rookie at the plate, I still do not agree. You will have a $hithouse on your hands but that is what you get paid for.

Now before you start arguing about the "rookie PU", tell me, would you jump in if he calls a fastball down the center of the plate, belt high a ball? Would you jump in if he calls the slider off the plate a strike? Some calls just belong to the PU, and IMO, this is one of them!

Regarding a PU missing or overlooking a situation with a pitcher who may have thrown at a batter... rather than throwing the PU under the bus, we discuss the issue in the post-game and we have a Peer-to-Peer evaluation option where we can submit good and/or bad officiating to help out the newbees or wake up the vets. We are a team and we should think as one. Talking between inings is still a no-no in my book.
Thanks guys-:)