Worthy of Ejection?
 

Men's league: Batter takes a called strike two. He steps out, gives me a stare and steps back in. Batter swings at a fastball for strike three. While in the batter's box, he looks at me and says for all to hear, "That F***ing pitch was inside!"

I tossed him from the game and was later told I shouldn't have by my assigner! Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated!

njdevs00cup,

To me, that's a HTBT sitch.

I can imagine, replying "You're entitled to your opinion, but you're still out" or, dumping him as you did.

The "F" word in that context doesn't really bother me very much (whereas, "F@#k you" would be no doubt about it, automatic). A lot would depend on tone, body language, etc. If he were "lingering" in the box, I might be more inclined to eject.

JM

I thought this was normal behavior in men's leagues?

I probably would have just asked him why he swung at it.

Mens LG ?
 

Anyone who has played the game at the HS level or above knows that directing the F bomb at you is an automatic ejection. The problem is that people like your assignor and other Umpires allow that to happen. You did the right thing, and you showed both teams you won't put up with that kind of behavior.

I actually enjoy the men's league games most of the time! I'm a high school official, so I appreciate the fact that many of the players were ex-college or minor league players. I have quickly understood that one questionable pitch, in their mind, is the cause of all negative actions following the pitch!

You don't say where the 3rd strike was, or the 2nd called strike. If the 3rd was inside then he is right and his comment was about himself swinging at an inside pitch. For that he is not complaining about calls. If it was not, and the 2nd called strike was inside then he is retroactively complaining about a call and using the F word to do it and deserves to be tossed.

If the 3rd strike he swung at was inside, I would say "yep", in an adult game.

The comment the batter made was about the strike two pitch, looking. It was a cutter or slider from a right handed pitcher to a left handed batter. Strike three swinging was on a fat fastball. Of course my call on strike two caused the batter to swing and miss strike three!

As several wise posters have already noted: Welcome to men's league baseball.
After the batter makes his comment you have several choices in men's league:
1) Dump him
2) Ignore him
3) Agree with him
4) Apologize to him for missing the pitch
5) Laugh at him
6) Get him next time
7) Walk off the field

Needless to say you have fewer choices on more "organized" levels of baseball.

JJ

BTW, other posters, how many of these 7 choices have you used in men's league?

It's clear now, your assigner is a jerk. Did he give a reason that you were wrong to eject?

Not really, but I'll let you think that.

"That fing pitch was inside"

The "f word" here is simply an adjective used to describe the pitch and is not ejectable on it's own, unless you are in a non-swearing league. Color me a jerk if you will, but, if I were the assignor and that is the story you gave me, I would agree that the EJ was not a good one.

You'd have empty benches in a hurry in pro ball.

Tell him he needs 2 things. A "tee" so he can put it where he wants it, and a "pacifier" for when he still makes an out.

I believe I read a story once about a batter who asked, "where was that pitch". The umpire said, right down the f---ing middle. The player said f--- you and was ejected. In his defense the player said he had never heard the f word before nor did he know what it meant, and just said it because the umpire did. The ump was fined $25 and the player nothing.

From what I have read, I agree with BBD when you are talking about the pro game and it is just a statement, but a complete scream and any jesture where the whole world can hear and see would be unacceptable there also. However, at the amateur level, this whole scene should be handled even tougher than the pros. I believe there is something about profanity audible to the stands somewhere in both pro and amateur.

If you let this guy say it loud enough for all the world to hear, then you have to let all the other players that night say it at least once for all the world to hear. Then every umpire after you has to hear and suffer the repercussions of this the next night because the players will say you did not act on that outburst, so why should the following crews handle it any differently.

This is much like a batter drawing a line, how you handle it, and what it means for the rest of the night. It also has repercussions for umpires that follow you in that league, when you let some sportsmanship issue arise and either act or do not act on it.

One other point. A league is only as good as how the person in charge "backs" the umpires in that league.

NOTE: In many areas the assignors (many but not all) have 40-50 or more schools (high school and middle school and other leagues) where they are paid $100 or more for every sport and team they assign (JV&Varsity boys and girls football, basketball, volleyball, soccer, baseball, wrestling, field hockey etc. etc.). This can work out to a nice 5-6 figure salary.

So, this leads me to "wonder" where they stand when it comes to backing umpire/official vs. team/league/school/coach on sportsmanship/contentious issues such as ejections. The above does not mean "all" assignors, or maybe it does not mean "any" assignors at all and I apologize if I have questioned any assignors integrity (yeah, I'll hear about it) , but I think it is food for thought and maybe that's all it is, food for thought.

I'll remember than if and when I work pro ball. Thanks.

bobby, would your opinion of the situation change if it was a scholastic (18yo) game?

"Looked good to me, Chief - that's why I called it!"

Don't get cocky with them, but let them know that you are the judge not them. I wouldn't eject the player in this scenario as long as it is above NCAA.

You're always going to run into problems in certain adult leagues no matter what you do. Its hard to throw a blanket statement out there saying whether or not you did the right thing, because no matter what you do, adult leagues are just so unpredictable.

At the HS level, I'm probably ejecting assuming the whole world heard and there was no doubt he was saying it to me and not himself ("that pitch was f****** inside" could be said to himself for swinging at a bad pitch for strike 3 after all). If was talking about strike 2, and I was sure of it, probably going to have to dump at the HS level.

NCAA and Pros, no way.

Adult League - who knows. Its a circus no matter what you do... eject, ignore, talk back, reason. Who knows what sets each of those people off... if you knew the player and had some experience with him maybe you would know which route to take.

I believe I already answered that.

In the OP I probably wouldn't have pulled the trigger. Everybody saw him swing and can see who's being the jerk. If he'd carried it too much further by continuing to rant he'd be gone.

First things first "mens League" - Enough said.

Have some feed-back with your assignor as to why he felt you should not have tossed the guy.

As far as EJ's go you will get a variety of answers as you have seen.

We are all from different parts of the country and have our own experiences in umpiring mens leagues games.

I have in mens league games "sent messages" however, that would be difficult to do in your case since the batter already K'd and IMO a message should be sent "right away" not some-time later on.

Example:

F1 had a mean hook this particular day and fooled B1. I called strike 2. After that B1 proceeded to draw a line around the plate and said he would need a tree trunk to hit that pitch.

F2 noticing that I did not toss B1 used his head. He set-up some 5-6 inches off the outside edge where F1 threw it. I rang up strike 3 and ALL knew what I had done.

I kept B1 in the game but also by my actions TOLD EVERYONE I will tolerate such nonsense.

The next time B1 came up he said "Blue can we start over" which I said Yes

However, that "message" was sent "right away"

Your OP is different. If only you, F2 and the batter heard the F Bomb I might be inclined to "let it go" however, if others heard it as well, then to keep control over the game (Men's leagues are notorious for getting out of control at the drop of a hat) he is gone.

It boils down to what you as an umpire tolerate and also the kind of league you are dealing with. As mentioned we are all from different parts of the county and what works in Montana might not necsssarily work in NY. As far as your assignor goes as mentioned above I would ask him why he thought the batter should not have been tossed.

Pete Booth

Sorry, Pete, I can't agree with the FU call. In my opinion, you should have dumped him............


Tim.

The OP idicated that "he says for all to hear"......

He's showing you up. Strike Four !!!

In my book he's going home, no matter what the level of baseball.





P.S. -- the assigner needs to grow a pair.......

In college as well...

Tim normally I would agree with you but the mens league at least in my area play once a week, normally Sunday mornings. It costs them around $350-$400 to join which includes insurance, uniform costs and umpire Fees.

I realize I should not govern EJ's based on Financial reasons but in baseball unlike the other sports there is no penalty for unsportsmanlike acts other than Ejection.

Also, many of these guys played College semi-pro etc. so they KNOW what's going on. These are not 12 yr. olds although they act like it sometimes.

The "message" is not something I am going to do all game long, but at least from my experience in dealing with men's leagues it has worked and even though they get "hosed" on a strike 3 call at least they are still in the game.

In addition they are not suspended from the next game or have to pay a fine. (This league I umpired in had an automatic one game suspension if you got EJ'd plus they had to pay a $25.00 fine on top of that)

Therefore, at least for me this method has worked.

Pete Booth

You know people, it really amazes me how many "know it alls" there are out there! I am willing to bet that most of you who are making statements about how "he said it loud enough to be heard" never umpired anything above HS! Now Tim (BU56), has officiated this level and ceased for the same reasons that I did - constant abuse from "want to bees that never were"! This isn't LL or HS, people, these people let you know in no uncertain terms if you screw up - either in their opinion or for real! Pete & Dash both know what I am talking about here, the games can run smooth or be hell. And if you get under the skin of one of these hot-shot managers, your night can be pure hell.

So comments fly back and forth and as we tell you all on this board, much of this craft is having a thick skin. In my territory, it was not uncommon for the local Police to have backup arrive to escort the umpires to their cars under the bleachers. This particular league became so out of hand that almost a dozen of us walked out in mid-season. That was 1998 and I have not been back since! (I am getting too old for that crap now)

Anyway, back to my admonishment of some of you out there. If you think that you can officiate a men's league or NCAA level by the same standards as you would HS kids, you are going to have a very short career with them. They will chew you up and spit out the bones. It's no shame to be on this board and only have officiated youth or HS. Just stop trying to tell us how you would do this and that when you haven't even gotten to that level.

Peace

1,2,5 and 7 after the game.

If they want their money's worth of baseball, I'd recommend they not act like that. I don't give a rip how much they pay to play, they're not paying me extra to listen to their BS.

A Bitter Pill
 

You can't put it back in a bottle.
The assignor is trying to help, so listen to him.

A league is only as good as how the person/people in charge "back" the umpires and run the league. This includes the punishments handed out for unsportsmanlike conduct/deportment.

Sounds like a good deterrent for unsportsmanlike conduct, and sounds like a league that "backs" its umpires. Or, is that league rule just a smokescreen and they "blackball" umpires who eject?

No this particular league didn't want any non-sense but as with other things in life once their is a new "management team" things change.

Like Ozzy I too do not umpire mens leagues any-more. It is simply not worth it. Generally speaking Mens leagues are the worst type games you will encounter.

You try and treat them like men but they act like fools and eventually no-one wants to umpire these games.

Pete Booth

While men's leagues do have a reputation (well deserved), I had a pretty good season this year, something seemed to have changed. I heard less whining, there were fewer EJs and all went relatively smoothly. You're always going to have those individuals who like to act like a$$es, but it wasn't as wide spread as before.

Interesting postings
 

Let me throw my .02 in here.

I am a member of the clergy, and I umpire men's adult and college BB, with former pro players in the leagues I work as well as lower levels. I have a rather dim view of anyone using the F-bomb any time I hear it, no matter who says it. The same goes for Damn, hell, and all kinds of other "colorful metaphors". Our culture is rapidly going down the chute, and it is this kind of behavior and language which is a sure sign of it. It did not used to be this way. And if I can, I will in a private manner ask them to knock it off. This does work, if you do it right.

However, if I hear it and F2 hears it only, then I can let it go and deal with it in other ways before ejection, unless it is being used to show me up, or the crowd starts to hear it. If the F-Bomb was the start of a conforontation, dump him now, if not deal with it in another way.

Most players who play on that level and have a clue know you cuss out towards the outfield, not at anyone, and don't use it to show the umpire up. And they also know that if they use it at me or any good ump on strike two, then the zone just got big time wider and he had better be swinging. There are times when strikes and outs are the best discipline for rowdy players, and a good F2 for the other team makes life real easy one you!

If he then decides to further do things, then he is deciding to eject himself.

Which leads me to the question I would ask our first poster: Did anything else happen earlier in the game that gave you a reason to eject him? Did he go after you in a previous AB, or was there a lot of people riding you about a call or your zone?

I frankly think your assigner should have walked you through why this was not a good ejection IHO, instead of just saying so.

Sounds like bullsh!t to me.

Precisely. An explanation would have been in order.

Yep. The number of adult males who have never heard F--- would be extremely small. The number of adult males playing baseball who have never heard F--- would be microscopic in number.

Not to mention (and to be overly analytical,) the umpire in this story used the word in its gerund form as an adjective. It wouldn't be intuitive to convert the adjectival form to an infinitive used as an epithet.

Would you eject an adult player for telling you you've made "a terrible call" loud enough for all to hear?

If not, would you eject the same player in the same situation if he'd said you've made a "fu*^^*ing terrible call"?


Tim.

No.

No.

BTW, what is "fu*^^*ing" anyway? I counted the letters and they don't add up.:confused:

:)

I already knew you wouldn't dump a player in either of the scenarios I presented. I was wondering how JK would handle it. It was obviously a loaded question.


Tim.

Huh?..... Makes my f$%#)*G head hurt........:confused:



griff

He means the player heard the word "blanking" and figured out he could turn it into a verb and say, "blank you!":)

I never got too much into that grammar $h1+ :D

Not around here. Saw a game his year where batter said something to plate ump after a called strike 3. Don't know what he said because it was not loud enough to be heard. He was tossed and he left quietly. The HC came running down the line to give PU his 2 cents worth and after a brief argument he was tossed.

No one else was tossed that day and no one else argued balls and strikes with the PU.

Tim, my answers
 

1. No, there needs to be more there than that.
2. Possibly, but the F-Bomb makes it more likely.

My point, sometimes you have to use a stiletto instead of a broadsword to deal with situations like this. If it is any kind of serious baseball going on, strikes, outs, and a well placed word can do the job better than an ejection.

But with my philosophy being that players and managers eject themselves, not me, then the times the guy needs to go, and the times he doesn't become pretty clear when you see them.

Blank you very much for the explanation! :)