Situation: R1, less than 2 outs. Batter hits line drive to F6 who makes a great catch. R1 is between 1B and 2B when the catch is made and retreats back to 1B. He would have been out but F6 throws ball into DBT. Do you award the runner 2B (is he required to touch 1B first due to the catch and then go to 2B) or do you award the runner 3B on the overthrow?

The question that will not die.

He gets 3B (two bases from the last base legally touched at the time the ball left the fielder's hand), but he must retouch 1B first.

For some reason, the phrase "one plus one," which doesn't appear in any rule I've ever read, still causes much confusion.

Sooooo,
 

The proper mechanic in my part of the country would be:

BU AND PU call, "Time, you (pointing at runner) third base!"

There would be no reference to the un-retouched base or any other direction.

Is that what you'd do in your neck of the woods?

Tee

"For some reason, the phrase "one plus one," which doesn't appear in any rule I've ever read"

Try a basketball rule book. That's what I told the baseball/softball coaches.

Bob

I wasn't refering to any 1 plus 1 myth. I had never even see the play before. It was just something I had thought of while reading the rulebook. Not every situation that comes up is found (or easily found) in the book that's why someone invented a page like this.
BTW, a big thank you to all of you experienced umps who respond to questions WITHOUT sarcasm.
I apologize if this situation has come up before. It's kinda like the "hands are part of the bat" myth. Unfortunately, many a parent will ALWAYS think that is a rule and for the ump who hasn't been out there that long and is still learning that situation will eventually surface. What's nice is having a place or person to go to that will answer your questions without giving the computer equivalent to an eyeroll (with sigh). Thanks again.

Spots101:

Don't let the sarcasm fool you.
Situations like the one you brought
up cause everyone to pause and think
about the play, and determine how they
would handle it. Although I have been
umpiring for quite some time now, I learn
something just about every day from
this forum, and others similar. That's
why I like to take rules quizzes on my
own: it keeps one's mind sharp.

I guess we all try to be flip or funny
at times (I am guilty), but I never
intend to insult anyone. Newer umpires
asking questions and presenting play
situations keep us all on our toes.
While the veteran umpire may have to
pause and think about a ruling, the
rookie will often know right away, since
he has recently taken the class/studied
the rule book. Keep studying and keep asking,
because when you think you know it all and
there's no room for improvement, you become
a "stale" umpire. And believe me, there are
plenty of them to go around already.

<i> Originally posted by spots101 </i>

<b> Situation: R1, less than 2 outs. Batter hits line drive to F6 who makes a great catch. R1 is between 1B and 2B when the catch is made and retreats back to 1B. He would have been out but F6 throws ball into DBT. Do you award the runner 2B (is he required to touch 1B first due to the catch and then go to 2B) or do you award the runner 3B on the overthrow? </b>

The others have given you the rule - Now reality:

When you see the ball go into DBT - Call TIME, however, wait a couple of seconds before issuing the awards. Chances are if you wait a couple of seconds the runner returning to first will correct his /her mistake BEFORE the awards - why!

Depending upon the age level, if you call TIME and say "You third base", the player will probably stop <i> dead in his /her tracks </i> and simply go to third base.

Now the defense appeals and we record the out. Now the offensive manager is going to come out and say "Hey Blue you told my runner to go to third base" and an argument will surface.

It's not our job to correct base-running infractions, however, by doing some preventative umpiring we could save a possible argument. We are not delaying the game by waiting a couple of seconds before issuing the awards.

Pete Booth

Pete,
 

There are people here (Jackie W) that contend that I post "just to argue" . . . while that is not true it seems at times I do take positions that don't seem to follow the "style" of this board.

I have worked a lot of baseball in my life. I do not react to "small diamond" questions nor would I answer a question based around a game played by the distaff groupings of players. I am not qualified to talk of little league or girls baseball/softball since I have never worked one of those level of games. Because of this I keep my comments to BASEBALL games played by players of "shaving age".

At the NCAA level and (semi)professional level the mechanic used to is to make the award EXACTLY as you would on ANY ball passing into DBT. We know that at school the award is immediate as the ball crosses the DBT line . . . the call is "TIME" . . . then the awards are made after about a 1/2 count.

This is the way it is taught and this is the way "many" upper level umpire clinics teach it.

Your advice to "delay" the call would be good for "many" levels of ball but NOT for all. It is the responsibility of players and coaches to understand rules . . . the direction "You, third base!" in no way can be construed as a "direction to violate the rules."

At the level I work the award is immediate and direct.

Re: Pete,
 

<i> Originally posted by Tim C </i>

<b> At the NCAA level and (semi)professional level the mechanic used to is to make the award EXACTLY as you would on ANY ball passing into DBT. We know that at school the award is immediate as the ball crosses the DBT line . . . the call is "TIME" . . . then the awards are made after about a 1/2 count.

This is the way it is taught and this is the way "many" upper level umpire clinics teach it.

Your advice to "delay" the call would be good for "many" levels of ball but NOT for all. It is the responsibility of players and coaches to understand rules . . . the direction "You, third base!" in no way can be construed as a "direction to violate the rules."

At the level I work the award is immediate and direct. </b>

Tim I agree which is why I prefaced my statement with "depending upon what level of ball you call" I too follow the same mechanic as you for upper level ball, because at this age they should know the rules.

However, from time to time I still help out at my local LL organization where I got started, and do some other ball with kids who do not shave.

Perhaps I should have specifically stated, "if you umpire kids who do not shave here's my advice"

Your point is well taken.

Pete Booth

what do u mean ?

GSBV Halle 1090 e.V.

Spots, you might have some fun examining variations on the situation you posed. For example, what if R1 had been between 1B and 2B at the time of the throw, but when it went out of play, he had touched 2B and was on his way to 3B? What if he had then gone on to touch 3B? What if he had started back toward 2B on his retreat to 1B? What if he had rounded 2B at the time of the throw and was retreating when it went out of play? What if he had simply proceeded to 3B? What if he went back to touch 1B though he was not legally allowed to do so? What if the play had not been obvious, and R1 had left too soon but nobody seemed to notice, then he rounded 2B and slid safely into 3B as the throw got past F5 and went out of play?

I'm sure you can think of some others.

Fed, MLB, and NCAA handle some of these differently.

P.S. The rule books won't help much. You'll need a case book, the BRD, the PBUC, the J/R from Rick Roder in Iowa, and this site.

[Edited by greymule on May 17th, 2002 at 02:02 PM]

Spots, you might have some fun examining variations on the situation you posed. For example, what if R1 had been between 1B and 2B at the time of the throw, but when it went out of play, he had touched 2B and was on his way to 3B? What if he had then gone on to touch 3B? What if he had started back toward 2B on his retreat to 1B? What if he had rounded 2B at the time of the throw and was retreating when it went out of play? What if he had simply proceeded to 3B? What if he went back to touch 1B though he was not legally allowed to do so? What if the play had not been obvious, and R1 had left too soon but nobody seemed to notice, then he rounded 2B and slid safely into 3B as the throw got past F5 and went out of play?

WOW! This sounds like an extra credit homework
assignment. Maybe I'll work on it while the Sox take on
Oakland again this evening.

Greymule, one never gives a base award at the time the ball goes out of play. It is either from the time of the pitch, throw or infraction. In a few of the examples you give the runner must be Flash Gordon to make it as far as you described. If the runner is past 2B when the ball went dead then he can't return to touch 1B. If he is retreating to 1B (between 2B and 1B) when it goes out of play the ump needs to give him the opportunity to complete his base running responsibility. The runner needs to touch 1B after the ball has been caught, according to you. If the play hadn't been that obvious then we do nothing until a legal appeal is made by the defense. How did I do?

Spots, you didn't understand the reason greymule's questions.

Depending on the rules system, the ability to corrrect baserunning errors vary.

The questions about the runners position at the time of the throw and his actions prior to and after time the ball went dead are critical to the runner's ability to correct any baserunning error. A baserunning error may also alter which base he is awarded.

Gather the references, participate in discussions, and increase your understanding.

Good luck.