What if player tells you your call was wrong?

[Danny R]

This happened to me today. LL (8yr-olds), I'm plate ump. 2 outs, one runner at 2nd. Batter hits to F6, who bobbles ball to F5. I'm running up 3rd base line to see the play on R2. F5 reaches out with ball to tag runner on back as runner goes by. It looked like a tag to me so I called runner out. Because of the angle, though, I couldn't actually see the ball touch the runner's back. So that's 3 outs and both teams are in the dugouts, except for F5, who is talking with his coach. They both come over and the kid says "Hey, I didn't actually get the tag on the runner." I said thanks for telling me, but it's too late now. What should I have done?

[Hollywood]

You made the right call IMO. I always chuckle when I have a kid come up to me and admit that they didn't make the tag or something similar. It's great to see that winning isn't as important to them then doing the right thing.

In your situation, there isn't really anything else you could have done. You don't want to create a circus by calling the teams back onto the field and then everyone will be questioning your judgement in the future. Besides, from what you said, everyone else must have seen the same thing you did if no one else said anything.

JCS

[brandda]

You could not change it if you wanted to as it is not an appealable call.

Think about the reverse situation. Let's say you saw a missed tag and the player told you he tagged him? You wouldn't do anything then.

Just leave it be and try to figure out if there was anyway you could have been in position so that next time you have the angle.

[greymule]

In Walt Disney's 1959 "Moochie of the Little League," with "the championship" of course at stake, Moochie trapped a ball in the outfield with two out in the last inning. The tying and winning runs would have scored, but the umpire ruled a catch. The kids on the losing team appealed to the umpire that the ball had been trapped, but the umpire said, "I'm sorry, boys. It looked like a catch to me." That was apparently final. The losing coaches did not attack the umpire.

However, Moochie then approached the umpire to admit that he had trapped the ball, and the win was awarded to the other team. Naturally, Moochie was the hero for being honest, and everybody extolled his virtue (especially the other team, I assume).

Gooey story for the kiddies, but players can't be expected to own up to reverse umpires' calls.

I worked a few times with one ump who, when he was not sure whether a batter had been hit by a pitch, would ask the batter, "Did that hit you?"

[Edited by greymule on May 12th, 2002 at 10:54 AM]

[Bfair]

There ARE times when you can use post incident information to correct a call. Certainly many are familiar with the famous "shoe polish" incident about a ball hitting a batter. For instance, there are times when you may think a ball batted downward may have hit a batter but you're not sure. Many will consider the reaction of the batter to assist them with their judgment call when that occurs. So, could a good actor receive a favorable call---certainly.

I had a situation a couple seasons back where a batter, with bases loaded and less than two out, hit a swinging bunt down the 3B line. The sound was not a solid sound, and I knew the pitch may have come off the hand, but possibly also the rubberized grip on the handle---I wasn't sure as to which. Still, I didn't have a lot of time to react.

R3 is charging the plate, F5 and F1 are both charging toward the ball, and F2 is positioning himself. I've got worries of runner interference if he contacts ball or fielders, fair/foul, and the anticipated play at the plate. The call became much easier when F5 overran the fair ball without gloving it.

NOW, immediately looking to 1B the batter has received time and is attending to an injured hand. I made my way down there to confirm that the ball hit his hand. I asked the batter,
"Hoss, did that ball hit you?"
"Right on my fanger", Hoss responded in his Texas twang.
"Well, did it hit the bat too, Hoss?", I asked knowing at this point I'm not going to let any play stand.
"Hell, no! It hit my fanger !!!", Hoss yelled.
"Hoss, are you sure it didn't hit the bat too?"
"Hell, no! All it hit was my fanger. Look at it!!"

Well, at that point I made the call, which was the 3rd strike on Hoss, and negated the play. Frankly, there was not significant argument about the timing of the call, rather, the old argument of the hands are part of the bat. That argument was promptly dismissed with the rule being explained. It was the correct call for what occurred. I just used "slow timing" (LOL), and added information to get it right. Certainly plays like this are uncommon.

---

Danny, you were in a difficult situation, and I doubt if I'd have handled it differently after the players had changed sides. There's a difference between a player claiming a missed call that would favor his team versus admitting a missed call that would cause the call to go against his team. There is little reason to doubt the truthfulness of the latter.

I would like to comment on the play itself, though. You describe a bobbled ball by F6 followed by a swipe tag where you were screened. My first thought was "Where is BU, that's his call!." Still, you may have been doing 8 year olds solo. However, when a swipe tag occurs it is generally due to a defensive miscue (or poor throw). As a rule, I make the defense prove that tag to me on a swipe tag. Unless I'm certain it happened---it didn't---and I have a safe call.

And to Brandda who says:

You could not change it if you wanted to as it is not an appealable call.

A call CAN legally be changed by the responsible official. It's been done many times, and will continue to be done. It's specifically addressed by the General Instructions to Umpires, and more recently supported by NCAA's stress to attempt to get the call correct over umpire image.

Choosing whether or not to live with an obviously wrong call remains the decision of the responsible official, but more modern officiating is changing, understanding that nobody is perfect, and granting much greater respect to an official willing to admit obvious error and correct the call. Each situation, however, must be judged within its own circumstances and for its own merits. With proper mechanics, proper timing, and good rules knowledge, a quality umpire can greatly minimize his risk of getting himself into such predicaments.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[greymule]

Once I didn't see a pitch hit a girl, so I called it a ball. But when I saw her holding her stomach and crying, I sent her to first base. The defensive coach asked whether I actually saw the ball hit her, but I explained that the evidence was obvious, since I didn't believe this 11-year-old was faking. Yes, Freix, by all means reverse a call according to evidence, as the umpires did with Nippy Jones and the shoe polish in the 1957 World Series.

[bluezebra]

"In Walt Disney's 1959 "Moochie of the Little League," with "the championship" of course at stake, Moochie trapped a ball in the outfield with two out in the last inning. The tying and winning runs would have scored, but the umpire ruled a catch. The kids on the losing team appealed to the umpire that the ball had been trapped, but the umpire said, "I'm sorry, boys. It looked like a catch to me." That was apparently final. The losing coaches did not attack the umpire.

However, Moochie then approached the umpire to admit that he had trapped the ball, and the win was awarded to the other team. Naturally, Moochie was the hero for being honest, and everybody extolled his virtue (especially the other team, I assume)."

Today, the kid's parents would leave him at the field, his teammates would beat the snot out of him, and he'd have to run awawy and join the Foreign Legion to forget.

Bob

[brandda]

Originally posted by Bfair

And to Brandda who says:

You could not change it if you wanted to as it is not an appealable call.

A call CAN legally be changed by the responsible official. It's been done many times, and will continue to be done. It's specifically addressed by the General Instructions to Umpires, and more recently supported by NCAA's stress to attempt to get the call correct over umpire image.

I cannot speak to NCAA rules, but LL has a very specific set of appealable calls (missed bases, etc...) and this is not one of them. This falls under the area of a judgement call and is not appealable. If you make the call, you have to live with it, otherwise you will be questioned on every situation which comes up from that point on.

[ENelson]

The NCAA\Major League Baseball Right Call Philosophy is meant to be in situations where a fielder drops a ball, pulls a foot, fair foul or if there is an obvious judgement issue. Basically the umpire making the call does not see the obvious.

This is not a situation where there is a timing, tag, or sliding play. Basically JUDGEMENT is JUDGEMENT. The tag in this posting is the umpire saw the ball beat the runner the tag looked good, you had an out. That is acceptable.

[Danny R]

A couple of folks here have said that I could not have legally changed my ruling even if I wanted to because the call is not legally appealable. I've changed my calls of balls to strikes a couple of times--was that illegal? The situation was that the pitcher threw a hard one right at my head. I ducked to avoid taking the ball in the mask and called "ball" when I came back up. Then I heard someone yell "hey that's a strike, he swung". I then looked to the field ump who confirmed that the kid swung, so I changed my call to strike. I just didn't see it when I was ducking. Of course, I am going to work to find a way to avoid being hit without losing vision of the batter so that this doesn't happen in the future. However, balls and strikes are not appealable calls. Does anybody suggest that it was wrong for me to change my call in these 2 cases?

Thanks.

[Bfair]

Danny, flinching pitches is not an uncommon problem with newer officials, and is certainly a problem to work on over time to eliminate from your game. Realize that the equipment is there to protect you, and will protect you. In fact, the best protection it can provide you is when it's facing the ball. IOW, not moving provides the best protection possible. It also allows you to see the pitches as best you can.

Now, to those who say the call cannot be changed.
If I had made such a call, that is, calling the runner out on a tag play, and my partner approached me and told me the ball dropped out after the tag, then I could correct that call to safe if I chose to. Likewise, if the fielder advised me after the call that he didn't tag the runner, I could correct that call also if I chose to. Where the added information comes from is irrelevant. It's just whether I wish to accept the information as true. There is no reason a player making a tag would lie after I made an out call to tell me he didn't apply the tag---that doesn't favor his team. Both potential call changes put me in an embarrassing situations, and it's my decision whether I wish to accept the added information. Still, it's my call to legally change. There is nothing illegal in changing the call.

I am not saying it should always be done, and I'm certainly not saying it should be used as crutch for initially poor judgment calls. What I am saying, however, is that it is not illegal for the responsible official to change his judgment call---under any set of baseball rules. OBR supports it, PBUC supports it, Fed supports it, and NCAA supports it. None will tell you that it's good mechanics. However, it is preferred to correct an obvious mistake instead of living with an obviously poor call---OBR, PBUC, and NCAA specifically state that while the Fed examples it in caseplay.

Here's an excerpt from a post made by Jon Bible, an ex-professional and reknowned veteran college umpire, that he posted a week ago on a different board:

A couple of years ago I banged the back end of a double play at first, with the first baseman stretching toward me (toward right field). As soon as I did, all hell broke loose and here came the first base and head coaches. Right there I had a small hint that something was not right. When I looked up and saw David Wiley at second base easing toward me, it was immediately apparent from his body language that he was coming not to get the troops off of me and make it a one-on-one, but instead to tell me something. So I immediately put my hands up and said "Wait a second. . . " and asked Wiley if the foot had come off the bag. He said, "only about two feet or so," so I immediately changed the call. The point is that Wiley did not jump right in yelling "his foot was off the bag," but instead created a situation in which I would know to ask for help and then do so. IMHO, that is the best way to handle judgment plays, unlike rule plays, where I continue to believe what I have already said earlier.

Now, while some have advocated a "List of Five" that allows you to "legally" change a call, that list is not endorsed by any set of rules as the only calls that can legally be changed (although some would like you to think so). The list is comprised from examples provided elsewhere. Yet, that does not mean they are the ONLY situations where calls may legally be changed. Mr. Bible's correction is NOT among the "List of Five", and is frequently cited by those advocating the list as a call that should not and cannot be corrected. I beg to differ, as apparently so does Jon Bible.


Just my opinion,

Freix





[Edited by Bfair on May 13th, 2002 at 08:33 AM]

[brandda]

First off, on the flinching, don't sweat this. As Freix said, this is somehting we all go through starting out. Heck, I still have a couple of games per year where I find myself flinching especially at the minors level where the catchers really can't protect you the way they can when they are older. When that happens, I have some extra padding for my arms and stomach that I put on and wear until I stop flinching at which point I can take it off again.

A couple of things to be careful of. I have seen some umpires whose answer to flinching is to lock themselves down and force no movement at all during the pitch. While this can stop the flinching, it can also sometimes lead to tunnel vision so be careful. Secondly, whatever you do, don't do what you describe below. About the only way your head can get hurt is if you turn it or duck it. One of my very first games, I did this and took a fastball in the ear. It cured me of that particular problem very quickly. Finally, I have seen some umpires wear full helmets to deal with this and would not recommend it. Hearing is very important to good umpiring and it is pretty hard to hear with one of those things on.

Ok, next, if you call it a ball, it can be appealed to the field umpire who can then tell you that he saw a strike. The reverse is not true. If you call it a strike, it cannot be changed back to a ball. This is something to keep in mind on those close swinging strikes as well. If you are in doubt, call it a ball and then let them appeal.

I will defer to my esteemed colleagues on this board as to the changing of a call, but I would tell you to be very, very, very careful in how you handle this. As I said previously, LL has a very specific set of appealable calls and if you allow appeals in other places, specifically as regards judgement calls, you can really be setting yourself up for trouble.