Ejection Video
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3RJf...eature=related

Does the base umpire make the mistake of being too aggressive in this situation?

I didn't think so.

I did think whoever submitted this was lame to keep rewinding and showing the ump tossing the dweeb over and over. He tossed him, the guy didn't leave, he told him to leave again, he didn't leave, the the PU arrived and took care of business like he should. The coach looked like a typical mouthy f*ck, and I don't care much for mouthy rat f*cks.

do you think they charged him a trip? that's a classic academy instructor move right there.

Bobby, please explain. Are you saying they (instructors) are trying to see if you remember to charge for a conference?

Other than being on the mound (it's unclear to me why BU is up there), what makes you question whether BU was too aggressive? There was a discussion, we don't know what was said (at least I couldn't hear it clearly), BU tossed the manager / coach with a nice point, PU came out in a reasonable time, BU didn't follow, ....

indeed. usually it is done after a trip has already been made in the inning...which means a pitching change would be required.

Nice Field
 

I'd like to work on a good field like that someday!

IMO, the PU needed to be on the hop when his partner ran the manager. Get the manager away as fast as possible. Other than that, it was fine.

why is everyone so fast to sprint between their partner and ejected manager as soon as the manager is dumped?

I think it looks bad, let the guy get his ten more seconds of whatever he wants to say in, he is going to leave anyway. If things get prolonged after that go ahead and get between them(Or if its heated/violent).

I am close in this situation and waiting to see if anyone is about to lose control. Or if the ejecting umpire turns to walk away, it's a great clue to step in. Or if it's 2-on-1. But I don't try to look like the aggressor as the rodeo clown -- it's not my job to exacerbate, it's my job to get the coach out of there and it's easier if he's not getting riled up by me.

The plate guy could've wandered a bit closer here, but I don't think he stepped in at the wrong time.

The base umpire invited the confrontation by taking a few steps towards the rat, and also he started talking back to the rat and pointing to the gate. Shouldn't he stand where he is, have the discussion, toss the rat, then not say anything until his partner comes in and walks the rat off the field?

Who knows what happened prior to this :confused: This could have been a problem the entire game. The coach could have been yelling something from the dugout prior to the video starting. Who knows

-Josh

this is where there is a monumental difference in what is taught at pro schools and expected in pro ball, and what is apparently practiced at amateur levels. Rich's post above is on par with what is taught at the schools. if the argument remains one on one and is not violent (heated is OK, violent is not) then the argument will continue to be one on one until something happens that dictates the partner(s) getting involved. such things generally include:

- violence (bumping, poking, etc.)
- the ratio dictates involvement (more than one on one)
- arguing umpire has had enough (communicated by walking away from argument)

until one of those things happen, the partner(s) generally are to leave the arguing to those involved. if it is prolonged enough, then the partner should have moved so that he is in close enough proximity so he can hear what is going on (for purposes of writing report, and also to insert himself in there once one of the above listed things happens.)

a vast majority of the EJs on youtube and the like (that do not involve professional umpires) are handled almost exactly opposite of what is taught at the schools, i.e. partner comes barrelling in to "rescue" the arguing umpire as soon as the EJ takes place. it seems like there are some guys (on here and not on here) that think that the EJ'd party should be ignored as soon as he is ejected. to me, this is just plain arrogant, and doesn't do anything to help the situation. arguments happen. EJs happen. i think what it boils down to is that they just don't happen that often in amateur ball, and there isn't enough time spent on handling of situations when umpires are trained at the local level.

We are taught, NCAA level, that once the ejection has occured, the ejecting ump should turn and walk away. Partner/s should then make sure offender leaves the field, either by escorting or running interference.

I didn't see a problem with BU taking a few steps to the coach as the coach came. If the coach is really hot, I'll make him come all the way. But sometimes, a few steps can be some positive body language that tells the coach, "okay, I'll talk and listen to you". Sometimes, that's all a coach needs. Coaches think umpires are arrogant. If we can get away from that notion by letting him know you will listen, he is much less likely to do something that will get him EJ'd.

Now, once he did whatever he did to get EJ'd, I'm not sure I would have been that loud about it. I would have turned my back to him, given the left hand, and then turned back around to face him.

Why walk away? Are you scared of him?

I've actually tossed, and then had a coach calm down because I explained to him where he went wrong before my partner eventually moved in. He has alot of respect for me because of it, and realized that it wasn't me that tossed him, it was himself ;)

Just some philosophies I've worked in that prevail on the basketball side of things.

This obviously isn't Youth ball, so no, i don't feel the BU did anything aggressive at all. Canada, I'm not gonna let any coach jump on me and not do a little jumping back. If we aren't aggressive in our neck of the woods, we are exiled to Freshman one man games.

Now, if my partner is getting in an animated conversation with a coach, I'm not going to stay 60 ft away. I'm going to be moving toward the location where this discussion is occuring and staying within earshot of the argument. I won't move in to peel off the coach until after an EJ and after my partner, turns his back and walks away.

I will never step on my partners toes in this kind of situation. Let him have his say and when HE is finished with the coach, then I will rodeo clown the offender.

Part of what I've been encouraged to do in NCAA is try to keep the coach in the game by listening longer than I would if I were in Pro ball. Logically, then, if and when I finally do dump him, as far as I'm concerned he's already told me what he thinks, I've already explained my position, and he's been repeating himself to the point of wasting everyone's time AND delaying the game. That's why once I dump someone, I'm done talking - and listening - and I turn and walk away and expect my partner to be there to escort him off.
That's not to say that I don't have "quick" ejections when I hear "magic" words, but those are pretty much understood by everyone involved.

JJ

Men,

It just seemed to me that the PU was haning back a good distance, then walking in after the ejection. I would been on the hop if I was a distance away.

Your milage may differ..

Fifty-six total words and 4 instances of the word 'rat' and you're asking in the original post if the umpire was too aggressive?

Here is what I would have done as BU.

"Coach, I will listen to you, but you need to stop gesturing with your arms and yelling. Let's just talk."

That would have gone a long way. Perhaps BU said this, who knows.

Then, if he continues, dump, and what is the need to get in his face after wards about it. What's the point in giving him a piece of your mind?

If he chooses to make himself look like an idiot, and you look all the more in control, then so be it.

My thoughts exactly.

I have said it before, and I will say it again. Most of these "rats", if you met them at a bar and started talking baseball with them, you would probably buy them a round!

There are a few coaches who I do not like at all. They have bad reputations concerning pushing umpires right up to a point just before ejecting.

But, I still don't call them "rats". They are coaches/managers. There are Assistant Coaches, and Players, and Fans. Everybody has roles and jobs in baseball.

I have read NOWHERE in a rule book about "rats". :rolleyes:

I still like the term. To me, a coach is someone who teaches the game and life lessons to his players while respecting all other game participants. I don't think anybody who disrespects an umpire like the one in this video is deserving of the title "coach". "Rat" seems like a more accurate description and I know I am not the first person here to use the term.

While I don't like the term and don't use it myself but I can tolerate it from some of the vets who post here. I do feel it's completely disrespectful coming from someone who is still wet behind the ears.

Pre-touchy-feely cumbaya singing umpiring came into vogue, they used to teach in umpire school that all coaches are "c*ock s*ckers" and "rats," and that every player is a "rat." That seemed to be how a lot of us learned this back in the 70s and 80s. I guess old habits die hard.

But I have never used this kind of terminology to a coach, manager, or player's face, just out of professional courtesy. Kind of like why sharks don't eat lawyers. :)

Walt, you're right. Some people haven't earned the right to use the term yet.

If you felt that this coach acted like a rat, how come you were asking if we thought the umpire was too aggressive? The answer was an overwhelming "NO." Give the manager a piece of cheese.

Seems like the only time "aggressive" for a "manager" comes in to play for some people is the Earl Weaver-Bill Haller argument on Youtube from years ago. Seems like angel Earl was telling the league office that he was a choir boy and didn't say any of the things that the umpires were saying in their umpire reports.

So, Richie Phillips had them wear a wire, and wa la, you can see and hear how Earl talked and acted, and what he felt about the umpires assuming the video is still there on Youtube under Earl Weaver.

Anyway, it should take much less than what Earl said at the amateur level to eject, and it can take less than what Earl said at the pro level also.

Voilà, s'il vous plaît.

That doesn't really make any sense to me. Wouldn't the usage of the term "rat" by anyone be dependent on the perceived behavior or actions of the coach rather than the experience of the person using the term?

Methinks that the young 'un has already differentiated between a "coach" and a "rat" by saying that a "rat" is a coach that dis-respects umpires. Methinks also that if you're going to question young Canada, in this particular case you should maybe be questioning his judgment, not his experience.

Of course, none of this particular l'il disagreement is worth a rat's azz anyway imo.:)

Fixed your post. Sheesh, if you're going to correct him at least get it right. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE]Bobby IMO, you canot compare what is taught at PRO School to the amteur level.

PRO ball is on TV for all to see and while Lou Pinella might make a jerk out of himself I do not think the umpires feel as though Lou will take a punch or become violent. Yes he's thrown dirt on the umpire, he's thrown bases etc. but nothing in which the umpires felt was threatening.

In amateur baseball we are dealing with amateur coaches. You do not know what will happen so IMO, in the amateur game it's best for the umpire who is not involved in the discussion to step in as quickly as possible to get the coach to leave.

Also, I cannot speak for college but in HS we do not have any "armed security" at our disposal as do PRO umpires.

In a nutshell in the amateur game if coaches act like the one in the video they should be suspended for a Long time. Also, the "other" partner should step in more quickly then they would in a D1 College game or a PRO game because one is comparing Apples to Oranges.

Pete Booth

No, I fixed it, but thanks for the scolding. It prompted me to do some research and learn how to type an à and an î.:)

I do not understand what using the term "rat" has to do with seniority. Could someone please explain this to me?

It doesn't really have anything to do with seniority. It just looks a bit funny coming from lesser experienced umpires who have not had to deal with a lifetime's share of rats yet. Don't take offense to it, but it's just that you ain't seen nothin' yet, to quote Bachman-Turner Overdrive.

Offerred in the spirit of learning ...

I seem to recall that not too long ago you had to ask what the term "rat" meant. Now, in this thread, you seem to be throwing it around with impugnity. You might not be using the term correctly.

I don't recall seeing any rat-like behavior in the video (not that it might not have been there; not that there might not have been some if I'd been on the field).

I few weeks ago I asked for a definition of jock sniffers, but I don't recall asking for a definition of a rat. From hearing the term used for almost 2 years now, I take it to mean a coach (or player for that matter) who acts like a jerk towards umpires. This leaves room for a broad range of behaviours. Please correct me if I am wrong.