Legion Baseball Question
 

Team A's best player is not there for the game the game gets suspended in bottom of the 9th due to rain and game is tied.

Make up date is set and Team A's best player is back can he play in the game?

Yes.......................


Tim.

Thanks.... I thought he would be able to play.

i'm goin with no if he wasn't on the original line up card, but can argue it either way. my argument for no is that the exact line up card from that game has to be used in the completion of the contest, and only players that are on that lineup are eligible. the exception, as stated in OBR 4.12c, is for a player that was not with the club on the date the game was played. the wording of the rule (shocking, i know) is a bit amibiguous, because it allows for multiple interpretations of what "with the club" means, and is where the argument for yes could arise.

from the professional standpoint, "with the club" means on the roster, and does not mean on vacation or sick or whatever. if a guy is on the roster and does not come to the game for whatever reason, pro managers still list him on the card in case this type of scenario happens. the reference in 4.12c to a player not with the club means that a guy has been traded to or acquired by the team at a point in time after that game was suspended, and it is allowing said player to participate in the completion of the suspended game.

i looked through the Legion rules http://www.baseball.legion.org/forms/alb_rules2008.pdf
and did not find anything that specifically covers this as a rules difference, so you gotta use the OBR to govern, which would lead me to my answer of no because of the above stated professional meaning of "with the club."

Bobby,

If he's a rostered player, he's eligible......................period.


Tim.

Wow - a most unique claim. Before anyone can buy into this, please tell us where the rule is that says all the players have to be on the "lineup card" in the first place.


4.01
(a) First, the home manager shall give his batting order to the umpire-in-chief, in duplicate.

(b) Next, the visiting manager shall give his batting order to the umpire-in-chief, in duplicate.

4.04
The batting order shall be followed throughout the game unless a player is substituted for another. In that case the substitute shall take the place of the replaced player in the batting order.

So therfore the batting order is only the players in the game, not the subs. AND, this is all that is required to be exchanged.

In addition:

The roster is the official list of eligible team members, not a list of those present for the game. In pro baseball the league office has the official version. Most youth leagues have a player agent or whatever that maintains the official roster. American Legion has ALB Registration Form #1 which lists the team

http://www.baseball.legion.org/forms/alb_form1.pdf

I'm Tall is wrong on this one. Better go ask Ed King!:)

Ed king would fall over and shake if you asked him that. crow eaten. too many double talking rules and interps (MLBUM states SHALL list all players, but then says they don't have to later. splendid.) and too much reading into it by the tall one. answer changed to yes, let the fool play.

Hey, you're pretty damn bright, and you don't get tripped up very often. What, you're batting around .999 now? It is good to know I'm not the only one who gets a rule screwed up now and then.

Shut up Tyler:) :) :)

The copy of the MLBUM that I have says:

3.1 LINEUP CARDS
Each manager should write the name of each eligible player on the face of his club's batting order card in addition to furnishing the starting lineup. However, a manager's failure to list an eligible player does not prevent that player from entering the game, nor is such failure grounds for protest, as the listing of eligible players is simply a courtesy.

Two more questions
 

I have read thru the legion rule book that I have but cant seem to find the answers I am looking for:

1. If the umpire feels the batter made no effort in avoiding being hit is the pitch called on location as to where it is either a ball or a strike

2. Can a player coach be ejected after the game is over?

Yes to both questions.

1. Award the base most of the time, even if it was a ball. Don't get into a habit of holding batters back on a hit-by-pitch even if the batter made no effort to move out of the way. If it was a strike, its okay to have him stay right there.
2. Ball game! You didn't see anything after the game was over. If you did see something of interest, notify the proper authorities. You are no longer the guy in charge.

I don't think so....................

Here's a hypothetical:

Losing teams assistant coach walks up to you and your partner as you're trying to exit the field after the game is over. He tells the both of you, "You're the worst f&*$%#in umpires I've ever seen. You gave us a real F$*&%#in out there tonight."

I can promise you that I would immediately issue a post game ejection for something like this.


Tim.

great, what's the rule??

Removing the F words this is kinda what happened I was not umpiring the game but the losing coach and plate umpire were not telling each other "good game" The coach later ask me if he could be ejected after the game, my reply was the umpire is in charge til he leaves the playing field I know that may be a NFHS rule, But i can not find that verbage in OBR or Legion Rules

There are different opinions here can anyone provide the "official" ruling?

I hope you are not thinking about what rule to use use to toss when this happens. Take care of business before you leave, and then report per 9.05a and 9.05b and then league president is required to follow 9.05c and apply whatever penalites deem necessary. Often there is not a next game penalty anyway, so get your satisfaction before you leave.

Right, so it's not a post game ejection...the penalty is applied by the league. It's probably more of a post game conduct report. Just saying.

I am not looking for the rule to use I just want to know if you can eject a player or a coach after the 3rd out is made to end the game.

It depends on the league.

You can always write a report. Some leagues, though, won't take much action on the report if there wasn't also an ejjection.

Your
 

jurisdiction ends when you exit thru the fence. Until then, your authority is clear and what you see and/or hear is subject to what you see or hear...

;)

IMHO.

Then again, if you officiate shaving age softball in our town and later, a player comes up to you say, in a bar or shopping mall, engages you in argument or voices objection to a call you made in a previous game (or worse), that player has violated a M.A.S.A. rule and is subject to disciplinary action including disqualification.

FWIW

sadly enough, something probably happened to warrant this rule.

I had no dog in the fight, I was just ask the simple question by the coach if he could be ejected after the game had ended.

"The umpire shall immediately eject from the game any individuals violating this regulation"..... The game was over the 3rd out had been recorded, the teams had shook hands, on the way back to the dugout the coach asked the umpire a question about a call, the home plate umpire was still on the playing field observing the hand shake.

In my opinion, this is where the umpire went wrong. The last sentence should have read, "...the coach wanted to yell at the umpire about a call, but both umpires were already out the gate and on their way to the parking lot, so the coach had to go screw himself."

Or words to that effect.;)

my only issue with an umpire who thinks they can "eject" after a game is over...find an OBR rule that supports you. If there is a suspension involved, they will appeal your decision and you'll lose the appeal...as said before...the governing body can certainly suspend...but if there's no rule to support your ejection, you leave it all to the governing body. If it's that bad...challenge you association to not work one of the team's next games...home or away. just a thought.

Sub question
 

Arlington Heights protested a ruling in their game against Edwardsville in the 7th inning of the first game of the Senior American Legion State Tournament played in Belleville at Whitey Herzog field. A. H.brought in a relief pitcher ; moved their starting pitcher to 1b.

The reliever was going in for the left fielder, with the first baseman going to left. According to Edwardsville's coach, the move was illegal since A.H. did not go directly to the H.P. umpire to inform him of the multiple position changes. Without a major league rule book at hand the three umpires agreed that the A.H move was illegal and removed the starting pitcher (now 1b) from the duration of the game. After A.H. lost the game 8-4 the rule book was consulted from other umpires who had arrived. No evidence could be found that A.H. had done anything wrong with their substitutions ; especially since it didn't involve a "double switch". The protest was upheld by the protest committee. The game will resume from the protested point with E-Ville batting , leading 4-2. Two on; one out.
Anybody out their who can find something in the Major League Rule Case Book on this particular situation?

"Coming from a coach of your almost immeasurably low skill level, that hardly rates as even an insult."

This usually seems to work.

??????????

When a coach has an opinion of our umpiring, he is virtually always an incompetent, loose-cannon redass. How could anything someone like that says have any real importance?

You don't need a case book. Only one sub was made NewF1 for F7. BFD.

The "go to the umpire first" requirement only applies to double-switches - which involve substituting two or more players into the batting order. See 3.03.

You don't have to announce position changes. You can't find this in the rule book because it isn't a requirement. You can swap in-the-bating-order players around to different fielding positions all day and not announce anything. See 4.03(c).

Thanks!!

"Major League Rule Case Book": HUH?!?
We have available all kinds of references, Recognised Authority, and Authorised Interpretations; but "M.L.R.C.B." ain't one of them. The formal "casebook" of MLB is contained in and a part of the Rules.

There is also no rule AT ALL, at ANY level of baseball, that requires that the umpire(s) be informed of POSITION CHANGES - only changes in the batting order. One wonders how umpires this ignorant get hired/ assigned to "important" games. Upholding the protest was a no-brainer: I rejoice that they got it right.

Wham! Here we are, back 5 years on this rule. :mad:

I was watching, and Piniella did not violate any rule, though the Astros manager was smart to question the move. Piniella went to the mound, asked his pitcher if he was done for the day, got a confirmation, then immediately turned to the PU (Marty Foster, BTW) and made the double switch. All the rule requires is that the umpire be informed of the batting order change before the player takes his position. Piniella did not make the call to the bullpen until he had reported the change to Foster. No rule violated.

Plus, it was only the first trip of the inning, so he did not have to remove the pitcher. The manager has to go to the umpire before making the change, not before he talks to his pitcher. If it had been the 2nd trip, Piniella would have gone straight to the umpire first.

Thank you! There are some scorekeepers I have run across who will disagree:rolleyes: . No sooner do I say who the sub is batting for than they ask, "where is he playing?" Drives me nuts.

Don't answer.

I usually just do the "wave and point into the field" thing for the sub.

Hmmm....

Just as a "point of fact", here is what the MLBUM has to say on the subject (of GMoore's "sub question" and ensuing discussion):

So, as to GMoore's "sub question", I would go with what Rich Ives said. And, in regard to the DS in the Cubs game the other night, what SDSteve said.

In regard to the MLBUM mandate that the DM provide the umpire with the "defensive positions" of the entering players as well as their repsective positons in the batting lineup, I believe this is in place simply to unambiguously clarify whether the pitcher is being replaced, and , if so, by whom. To me, this requirement is implicit in the rules, because the pitcher (nor the catcher, for that matter) may NOT position himself anywhere he pleases prior to the ball being put in play. Plus, it's just kinda' practical, provides an opportunity to demonstrate you know what you're doing (if you do...), and helps preclude 3rd world situations.

I think the "sub question" would have been fun! But, then I know the "rule".

JM