Foul tip signal
 

Do you guys give a signal to indicate a foul tip?

I do but, I agree with Mr. Childress that it is useless.

Joe In Missouri

Maybe,
 

I give the "foul tip" signal ONLY if it advantagous to ME!

I never give it on the "big swing."

If there is checked/unchecked swing situation and the ball tipped the bat I give the signal. That is advantagous to ME.

Other than that do not give the signal as it is, indeed, useless.

Regards,

Ditto. And, to address Tee's point, since I have been *told* to do so, it is advantageous to me to give it "all" the time. ;)

I give it. I always thought it was an indication that I wasn't missing something (catcher's interference) and that yes, I heard that "extra sound" and the foul tip signal was me telling everyone that's what that sound was.

JJ

How is giving that signal any more useless than indicating a strike when a batter takes a full cut and misses?

The reason I'm asking is that I used to give a signal (probably because I saw MLB umpires do it) but then stopped when other umps, some on this board, argued that the signal was superfluous and, a few said, worthy of a "Smitty").

I can't say I've ever had a problem in an actual game either giving the signal or not giving it. As for foul tips on checked swings, I think I reflexively signal when that occurs. In other words, as Tim C says, I give the signal when it's advantageous to me.

Like Bob, I use it because we're told to use it by our association. That, and I think it helps me with my timing on ball/strike calls.


Tim.

I'll do it, but very low keyed and relaxed. I've seen some guys really try to sell it, for some odd reason. The scrape from bicep to finger tips, way high in the air, and pointing like they're posing for a Mr. Universe contest. Pretty funny, actually.

Relax boys, you're not doing softball.

I use it because that is the way it should be done! I do not care if the offense doesn't realize the ball is live and they can advance at their own risk. I only give it when it really is a foul tip. Smitty, on the other hand, signals the foul tip on every foul ball! Smitty rarely knows the difference.

Tim C and I have had some major disagreements in the past but to this I say AMEN!!!

I admit I still give the signal occasionally out of a 25 year habit but I am trying to wean myself to only limited use of the signal as in example above.

Although next to useless, the foul-tip signal does indicate when less than two strikes that you know the ball struck the bat, but that it was a foul tip, and thus not an out. Sort of like the little safe signal on a trapped catch.

OBR 6.05: "A batter is out when—
(a) His fair or foul fly ball (other than a foul tip) is legally caught by a fielder;"

I too give it mainly because my association trained me that way.

Whats the big issues on this? Why not give it every time there is a foul tip? Why does it have to be "advantageous" to anyone. This is a nothingness. Since we are still in the era of when the slam-dunk majority of umpires do it, from MLB on down, if one doesnt do it, they look like the umpire who doesnt know what hes doing out there.
Why? Because everyone, players, coaches, fans, other umpires are still used to seeing that mechanic on a foul tip. Yes, most everyone knows its a stirke on a foul tip, but why not just give the signal.
Its just showing everyone we are seeing EVERYTHING out there, from major to minor.
Kinda like a check swing and some say ..."Ball! No!"..... to me, thats a way of telling everyone we are calling ball because it was out of the zone AND the batter didnt offer at the pitch. We are seeing everything, and letting everyone know that.

I don't see a big deal either way. I find it funny that some do, though. Just don't make a "stadium call" about it, and it's all good.

there is no such thing as a trapped catch. if it's a catch it wasn't trapped, and if it was trapped it wasn't a catch. furthermore, such a play calls for a bit more than a "little safe signal" to indicate the ball was not caught.

The foul tip mechanic is not a useless mechanic. It should be used as a communication mechanic between umpires.

We often have to rely on our base umpire(s) to let us know if the ball was caught or dropped on a 3rd strike in the dirt - because we get blocked out.

The same is true with a foul tip, if the batter tips a pitch that skips in the dirt before the catcher catches it and we don't see it, the ball is obviously foul. The PU signals that he has a foul tip and if anything goofy were to happen the BU could then indicate that it was a foul ball instead of a foul tip.

~tsk~
 

Mid:

I respect your opinion.

I feel it is useless. I do not consider it "communication between umpires" as I feel it is primarily a signal used by the PU to note certain specific things.

That is why, in my opinion, I feel it is useless EXCEPT when it is an advantage too me.

I give the signal ONLY when the foul tip helps me with my job. The two most common times are on the checked/unchecked swing and when a hitter attempts to pull the bat back on a bunt attempt (I would also use it, obviously, if the batter was trying to evade a pitch and the ball tipped the bat).

I would NEVER give the foul tip signal when the batter takes a full fledged swing at a ball and "happens" to tip the ball. I simply give a "strike" signal.

From my view (as a base umpire) I can't really remember anytime I really even cared if a ball was signaled a foul tip or not. Maybe it has happen but I just don't remember it.

Of course my experience is limited and I haven't worked every game ever played.

Sometimes it just seems that way.

Regards,

This is one of those things that IMO falls under Umpire Preference.

I see some MLB umpires give the signal and others that do not.

I do it but it's more because of habit than anything else.

What took me some time to "get rid of" when I first started umpiring was when I called Dead ball instead of simply saying "TIME"

Pete Booth

Tim:

I'm not disagreeing with you about when to use the mechanic. I think that some umpires do take the mechanic too far in a "look at me" sort of way. To give the mechanic on a pitch down the middle that is tipped is pretty ridiculous.

However, I think you need to take into consideration that if the ball either skips in the dirt or is caught cleanly.

I feel you need to give the mechanic so your partner(s) know you have something and if they know that the ball hit the ground before the catcher caught it, then they can let you know that it is a foul ball, not a foul tip. They need to know that you have contact because they cannot hear the tip, but they can see if it was caught or not. Confusion can set in quickly - runner stealing on the play, dropped 3rd strike/foul ball - if the information is not relayed. While these scenarios don't happen often they do happen and giving the mechanic can prevent having to get together later to change the call and having a s••thouse mess on your hands.

I guess what I'm saying is this is another scenario that needs to be added to your list of advantageous times.

IMO, another "useless" signal: Time play with R3 only and two outs. It would take a real TWP to have the BR make the third out after reaching first and before R3 reaches the plate.

Yep,
 

And as I have stated before: I do not give the "Time Play" signal at any time nor do I answer it if it is given to me.

Regards,

Gee, that's strange...the pros all do. I am constantly watching for these things and always see this signal given when there are two outs and a time play situation. If it's good enough for MLB umpires, why is it beneath you to use the signal? All it is is a reminder that there are two outs and a possible time play exists and to be alerted to that fact.

I'm not saying that you have to be obnoxious about the signal. I've seen that extreme with big, ostentatious signaling that some ham actors do when working the plate. I'm talking about a nice, discreet two fingers on the wrist.

I have Ozzy to thank for this. Every time I started to say, "Dead Ball", I had Ozzy and his ceremonial burial of a baseball flash inside my head, which effectively stopped THAT process.

It's all TIME! now...

:D:D:D

Hmmm,
 

Steve:

IF one gives the "Time Play" signal do they give it every time there are multiple runners and one out?

You have the exact same possibilities as you have with one runner and two outs.

I have never seen any umpire give the "Time Play" signal with less than two outs.

In my opinion this imperical research shows that the sign is useless and unnecessary. The only thing it accomplishes is to "remind" an umpire to keep his head in the game. Umpires are not taught to make calls, faster, louder, or more demonstrative because of the signal.

Steve, the advice I give on umpire boards is just that . . . advice.

If I was "told" to use the foul tip or time play signal it would be up to me if I wanted to use them or not. My personal decision would be to "not" use the sign and if that cost me assignments that's my tough cookies.

Umpiring needs to join the 21st century. We all know how hard it is to instigate change in umpiring and while I am not trying to do that by ignoring these signals it IS my opinion they are wasteful.

In closing:

About 95% of the items we talk about on internet umpire boards are not only interesting to umpires they are only noticed by umpires (and evaluators). No one (except the above mentioned) notices an under shirt color, a shade of grey pant, a Carlucci protector or even if an umpire wears patent leather shoes -- I am all for communication between crew mates but I would suggest (and teach) that there are important things that need communicated and extraneous items that needn't be done.

Regards,

I certainly give it with one out and: R1/R3, R2/R3 or bases loaded.

I admit to not giving it with bases loaded and no outs, or R1/R2 and one out, or R1 and two outs.