Maybe I should have walked him through it........
 

I trailed a BR up the line with no one on base today and it sure looked to me like F3 missed a swipe tag he'd attempted on the back of the runner as the runner passed him. My partner bangs the runner out, and I turn to head back to the dish. The 3B coach yells to me that I need to give my partner help on the play. The next batter steps into the box, and with his coach still mumbling I get set and F1 delivers the pitch. The coach settles down and waits until the side is retired to approach me and ask why I didn't go out and give my partner help on the play. He knew enough to tell me that as the PU I'll watch for both pulled foot or a swipe tag on the play, but he didn't know enough to go to my partner and ask him to come to me for help. I'm still not sure, even after trying to explain it to him, that he understands what the proper protocol is..............

Tim.

Coach's continually amaze me!! I had one, after I rung his batter up on a check swing, ask me to get help!!! Same coach on a one hopper that was caught foul by 1b tried to claim the ball was fair, "because 1b had his feet in fair ground". I nearly said somthing sarcastic, but I bit my tongue.

I think it's the coaches responsibility to know proper protocol on an appeal. We, as umpires, are not there to hold their hands and coach them. For instance, when the catcher interferes with the batter and he puts the ball in play, we just enforce the penalty. If the coach wants to take the result of the play, the coach has to exercise that right. It's so frustrating.

For instance, R1 and 1 out. F1 pitches the ball and R1 running on the pitch, The ball sails across the plate high. As the catcher receives the ball, the batter starts to swing, and I call "b----all" loudly. I let the catcher attempt to throw R1 out at second and then correct my call to a strike on the swing.

The defense coach comes storming out of the dugout because he "wants obstruction called" on the batter. I told him to "plant it back into the dugout. If you would like to talk about it, call 'time' and approach me in a gentlemanly manner." He goes back into the dugout and calls time. He comes out and wants an explanation of my call. I told him that the pitch came in and I called it a ball, the batter offered at the pitch (although extremely late), and the catcher attempted to throw R1 out on the steal. Although I called the pitch a ball, the batter offered at the pitch and I corrected it at first opportunity. He felt that the batter purposely swung late to disrupt the catcher's throw.

He insisted that I ask my partner if there was obstruction :confused: I tried to tell him that I believe he meant batter's interference but he wasn't having it. So I obliged and asked my partner if he saw obstruction. Of course, he didn't see obstruction. What can I say, I tried but I'm not going to coach for him.

I give up coaching coaches, they know more than me anyways :rolleyes:

-Josh

Shame on you.

It sure looked to me like...my partner bangs the runner out.

Even if my partner asks for help after the play I am going to tell him it looked to me like F3 missed the tag, but he may have had a better angle and I respect his view of the play and do not recommend a change. After the game I will suggest to him that if he wants help he needs to ask before he calls an out, not before. And, I don't expect he will need help on the call.

jdmara,
If this is happening or has even happened once as you describe...slow down on your calls. I was taught there is never a need to reverse a call on a ball/strike if your timing is right. In almost 30 years I have never had that happen. Best advice...slow way down.

In this case, DG, I disagree. One of the reasons we trail a BR up the line is to help if there's a swipe tag. When F3 has to come off of the bag toward the plate and make a sweeping tag attempt on the BR whose passed him, we have a much better view of the tag/no tag from the backside than the BU does. I'd never overrule him, but I'm not going to hesitate to tell him he was straight lined and didn't see the miss of the tag. Ultimately it's his call, but I'd hope he wouldn't let pride get in the way of letting me help him make the right call. I do agree that if he has any doubts he should come to me before he makes a call, but that doesn't always happen when you're working with new partners.


Tim.

Timely thread. I heard just about everything today. We're in the middle of a pretty big tournament with age groups from 9 to 18 years. I started yesterday with a couple of 18-year old games. Everyone involved was very well behaved. Barely a peep at all.

I then had a couple of 16-year old games. The chirping increased a bit but we got through it.

Today I had 13-year olds. First off, the weather's been terrible. My DH was scheduled to start at 1:30 didn't get under way until 4:00. I have the plate for game 2. Credit to the guys who worked on the field - they did a great job. The only thing we were missing were the batter's boxes. That being said, you just know this is going to become and issue during the game.

Sure enough, top of the second inning, the visitors have already scored a run and have a runner on 2nd. LH batter in the box squares to bunt but pulls the bat back. I ring up strike 1.

One of the defensive coaches starts chirping that the batter's foot was out of the box. (I should point out that the dugouts are no more than 15 feet from the plate.) I ignored the chirping.

The batter squares and pulls back and takes the next pitch for a ball. Coach is getting louder. I'm still ignoring.

Batter gets set before the next pitch. Now the coach is almost out of his mind yelling at me.

Time!
Blue, I know there are no boxes but he's not standing in the box.
Coach, there ARE NO BOXES and he's fine where he is.
Blue, he's not in...
Coach, we're done.
But Blue...
Coach, that's enough.
But...
Buh-bye.

Advance to the 5th inning. Home team is now down by a 7-0 score. Their pitcher is starting to lose control and runners are on base. I'm begging the catcher to remind his pitcher to come to a stop so I don't have to balk him.

The pitcher now delivers a pitch that cuts the plate in half but is low. Ball 1. Pitcher rolls his eyes at me. Coach tells him that it's okay, put the next one there.

And he does. Ball 2. Now the hands go up and he's stomping around the mound.

Coach tells him that it's okay, "Blue is trying to make a statement."

I've already dumped one coach and I'm not looking for any more trouble. I ignore it.

The catcher digs the next pitch out of the dirt. Ball. Arms go up...eye roll...pitcher moans and stomps around. Coach is asking where that pitch was.

The next pitch of the sequence sails over the batter's head for ball 4. Coach comes out to remove his pitcher. I can hear the comments but I'm not looking for any more trouble. I move to the visitor's side to keep out of the way and then I hear it - "He's a f*cking douche bag!"

I'm not letting this slide. Coach, he's gone! Get his things and get him out of here! I turn and walk away and let things calm down.

I issued a few more warnings and at times wanted to tell the manager that he's too stupid to realize that I'm doing my best to keep him in the game. Enough already!

Now to the top of the 6th. Visitors are threatening again. Runner on second and the batter hits one in the gap in right center. R2 turns third and is headed for home. F9's throw is late and pulls the catcher a few steps up the line toward third. There is a collision. Nothing malicious. The catcher goes down and is hurt. The runner stumbles and manages to get a hand on the plate. The ball, which was nowhere near the catcher at the time of the collision, rattles around the cage and bounces back to the pitcher who throw to second in an attempt to retire the B/R.

As this is going on the coaches are screaming about the runner having to slide or avoid and so on. The manager comes out and starts yelling about how his player is hurt and something has to be done.

I instruct the coach to attend to his injured player. But that's my son! Fine, tend to your son. Honestly, at this point I'm starting to worry about my safety. I leave the area only to be followed by another assistant coach.

My partner is standing behind the pitcher's mound with this thumb somewhere unmentionable. The tournament site director is standing on the hill watching all hell break loose.

Finally, the home team manager tells me he's taking his team off the field.

Coach, please let the site manager know that this is your decision.

Now that everyone knows the game is over and there are no repercussions the sh*t really hits the fan. The coach I tossed is on the field trying to get to me. Parents are shouting to the losing team, "Don't shake their hands," as if the other team had anything to do with what happened. And the parents and fans do what parents and fans usually do - make asses of themselves.

But now we have a problem. We're playing on a JV field a a high school. The JV field is behind the Varsity field, which is behind the football field, which is behind the field house - meaning I've probably got about a 1/4 mile walk along a small path to get to me my car which is parked in the parking lot along with every other a-hole who thinks I screwed them.

It took all my strength but I held my tongue and tolerated all the insults that were tossed my way. The site manager was nowhere to be found. Thinking about it now, I should have called the police.

What a nightmare of a game, Walt. I hate-hate-hate doing games for 13 year old players and do my best to avoid them. The players don't know the big diamond well enough to play decent ball, the pitchers can't pitch, and the catchers can't catch. And then top it all off with coaches who don't have a clue yet.


I do think that you might have avoided part of the $h1t storm if you'd have baited the coach that made the above comment into ejecting himself as soon as he said this crap.



Tim.

Funny you should say this. During the first game I'm watching and thinking to myself, "This is why I hate 13-year old games."

I was asked to work this tourny and agreed. I didn't have much say in the age groups I worked.

Walt,

This is where you should have taken care of business and possibly set a different tone:

And he does. Ball 2. Now the hands go up and he's stomping around the mound.

Coach tells him that it's okay, "Blue is trying to make a statement."

I've already dumped one coach and I'm not looking for any more trouble. I ignore it.

I don't count the number of players and coaches I run. I run as many as it takes until they get the message that I'm not there to play f***f*** with them. I would have warned the coach that any more histrionics on the part of the pitcher and he would be needing a new pitcher. If that coach wanted to smart off about me making a statement, I would make a statement that he would be going along with his pitcher. Just my fabulous opinion.

Steve,

Looking back it's hard to say you'd be wrong if I followed this approach.

And should you happen to forget it, never fear, one will soon come around to prove it to you again.

In general, PU does NOT have a good look at a swipe tag on the back of BR. PU is "straight lined" and canot tell whether the tag was applied. IIRC, Bob Pariseau (anyone remember him?) tested this at a clinic he was conducting. A large majority of PUs got this call wrong.

I don't think it's a good idea to play word games with the coach on the "obstruction / interference" difference. You know what he wants. deal with that. Also, if the batter swung and wasn't really offering at the pitch, then I think the coach might have a case (it depends on how late the swing was). In any event, I'd tell the coach that this isn't a "shared call" and that I had the play all the way.

I guess we'll have to disagree, Bob. There's no reason, unless the PU plants roots just outside the batters box, that he doesn't have a much better look at a swipe tag from the backside. The play is right in front of us, and unlike the BU, we don't have a body between ourselves and the tag. And sure, I remember Bob. I enjoyed greatly reading his 700 word dissertations on how to signal a foul tip. But I don't lend much credence to his findings at a LL clinic.


Tim.

Golly, I am thinking a few times before I work in that tourney again.

Ace

I also tend to disagree with Bob on this one too. The PU certainly has a better view of a swipe tag than does a BU that is out of position so that F3 is blocking his view of the tag. The PU has a look that is the equivalent of the BU's "lean and look" at 1st base on a swipe tag. At least he's not looking directly up the fielder's a$s, and should have a relatively unobstructed view of the play.

I only advocate the BU asking for help before making a call, and only from inside the infield. A BU starting in A with no runners on base should be able to get 100% of pulled feet and swipe tags, no excuses. And since the only time a PU trails the BR up the line is when the BU is in A, the PU should theoretically not have to help on the call. But we know that's not really the case in the "real" world (of horrible partners).

Reminds me of a summer league game last year, 16-18 year olds, I'm PU. Visiting team from another town is leading by about 13-0 in the bottom of the 3rd and the pitcher just got a ball 4 called and he comes off the front of the mound 2 steps toward me with his arms spread wide saying "where was it?" I turn to the HC and tell him he needs to have a word with his pitcher, so he calls time and goes to the mound. I did not tell him he needed to make a trip, but ok, maybe this will calm him down. Two batters later, same thing except he takes 3 steps toward me instead of 2. I tell HC he needs to have a word with his pitcher, so he calls the pitcher and the catcher over to the foul line and has a discussion while I am writing down 2nd trip in my notepad. They separate and pitcher heads back to the mound and I tell HC he needs to change pitchers due to two trips. "I did not make a trip" he says. "I did not cross the foul line". I tell him its a trip, yadayadayada later and I finally say "last chance coach, change your pitcher" so he hollers to the player at 3B to take the mound, turns his back and says the magic words - "you making all this money you should learn the rules." Bye-bye. I turn toward the mound and the pitcher says "I'm not leaving, you will have to make me leave." Bye-bye. I start walking toward the field supervisor who has cell phone to his ear and is nearing the gate to the field and I hear steps behind me and turn and find another home team player, from the bench, in my face. I don't know what he said because "bye-bye" happened so fast. Now the visiting team bench has cleared, and the whole home team is hollering at the other team. My partner comes up to me and says "I think we should forfeit this game, these guys are out of control". So, we did.

The home team fans are chearing and clapping as we leave the field on the home team side and the visiting team fans are hollering at me and my partner (imagine that). The police arrive (cell phone to the ear was a call to the locals). My partner and I go to our cars and start changing for the 2nd game of a DH, which is more than an hour from game time. After a brief discussion with the field supervisor the police have a discussion with the HC from the visiting team and they all exit the premises.

My partner and I call our assigner to let him know what had happened. He said he had been warned 2 days prior about the visiting team's behaviour, he looked at the schedule for the next game to determine if he needed to provide a warning and when he saw it was me and my partner he knew we would take care of business and didn't bother to tell us.

We worked the second game without a peep from anybody. It was a game between the same home team from the first game and another team from the same town as the visiting team from the first game. Different team, coach, different fans.

The 1st game was only the 2nd I every forfeited.

Oh, I found out later the pitcher I tossed and the HC I tossed were related. Imagine that.

My partner and I were on the same page. If it were with someone I worked with prior, I wouldn't have done it lol

-Josh

There's a difference between you looking for trouble and trouble looking for you. If trouble's heading your way, you need to be proactive and deal with it. If you use the logic that you used here, then the offending team actually has more leeway in its collective ability to be asshats because you are taking a passive, reactive approach to your dealings with it. Hardly fair to the team that's been acting appropriately.

I would go so far as to say that I take the polar opposite approach. If I've tossed someone during a given game, my tolerance for further inappropriate conduct decreases somewhat. What might have been a warning earlier now becomes an ejection. I don't go looking for confrontation, but as one of my favorite first sergeants said once upon a time, "I'm not looking to get a joe in trouble, but if you bend over and drop your pants in front of me..." You can guess the rest of that sentence as to the figurative action to which he was referring. It's the same logic--I'm not getting rabbit ears, looking for boogers, or anything like that, but if a team that has already had some involuntary personnel changes continues to have visible issues, they will be addressed.

I would not agree that PU has a "much better look" simply because of the distance. The only time I think PU can really tell if he tagged him would be if the runner is running through the tag.

If F3 is tagging on the backside of the runner, no way PU can really tell if he tags the BR.

But, as you stated, if PU hustles up the line, he could help on the play if asked by BU with no problems and probably no complaints.

Thanks
David