I really dislike USSSA's new courtesy runner rule!
 

Mostly a rant. You have been warned.

USSSA rule 8.04B.2 states that a team that is batting a continuous line-up (everyone on the roster bats), the courtesy runner (for pitcher or catcher) shall be the player whom recorded the previous out. If no outs have been recorded in the game, it shall be the previous batter not on base. If a courtesy runner is determined ineligible, a proper replacement will be used without penalty.

Courtesy runners were originally an idea to help speed up the game: Get the catcher off the bases and into his gear or getting the pitcher ready for his warmups the next inning. However, with this new rule, this is what I'm seeing: Pitcher, batting third, grounds out. Catcher, batting fourth, hits safely. Pitcher now courtesy runs for the catcher. Even one better: Both pitcher and catcher hit safely, but pitcher throw out trying to score. Pitcher then immediately goes to courtesy run for the catcher.

Furthermore, in a particualary long inning, coaches are scrambling to remember who made the last out. Sometimes that last out was made in the previous inning! And what happens if you put the wrong kid out there? Nothing. Just replace him with the proper courtesy runner. So some dishonest coaches "mistakenly" are putting their fastest kid on base to courtesy run since there is no penalty if their "mistake" is discovered.

Okay, rant over. Discuss.

Makes so sense to run for the pitcher. The only one they should run for is F2.

But, you are correct. As long as there is no penalty, there will be coaches who find a way to abuse the rule.

Thansk
David

u-trip has rules?



who knew?

What's the problem? You getting beat by pitchers who are courtesy running for catcher's that followed them in the lineup?

Long time ump here, DG. Not a rat.

I agree with TwoBits completely.

So why do you care? When I was a coach, a long time ago, I learned the rules I needed to play by, and played by them. Sometimes we win because of it.

I don't like the designated hitter rule in the American League, but it doesn't stop me from watching games on TV.

Read my OP, DG. I'll review and explain the high points:

Courtesy runners were originally an idea to help speed up the game.
This rules does not do that because "Pitcher now courtesy runs for the catcher" or "In a particualary long inning, coaches are scrambling to remember who made the last out."

What happens if you put the wrong kid out there? Nothing. Just replace him with the proper courtesy runner. So some dishonest coaches "mistakenly" are putting their fastest kid on base to courtesy run since there is no penalty if their "mistake" is discovered.
This is encouraging blatant cheating by some coaches. I see this as being similar to a coach switching his runners during a defensive conference so that the faster one has a better chance of scoring. That move has been discussed on this board many times in the agreement that outs and possible ejections occur when it happens.

I think the original intent of the CR rule is to get more participation for non-starters, since it rarely speeds up the game.

The second issue is just coaching. Any coach worth his salt has a scorekeeper who will immediately feed him the information he needs. Anything less is poor head coach. Blatant cheating is another subject.

Agreed on that. While I've suspected that the wrong CR has been used, its something that should be brought to my attention by the scorekeeper.

Are u seriously asking for help from the scorekeeper???!!!!

The scorekeeper should be there to keep score, certainly not be an alternate official. Would you want the scorekeeper alerting you (or either team) of a BOOO situation? I think not. And certainly not inserting himself in keeping track of CR's.

Haven't coached in awhile but I always wanted a good scorekeeper. For a good one I would EXPECT help. The job description requires it and I explain this very carefully before we get started with a season. If I can't get help during a game I have the wrong scorekeeper. I want him (or her) to tell me, without me asking, of any substitution issues, including BOO and wrong CR. I want him, if I ask, to tell me what the current batter has done his last at bat, or the one before, where he hit the ball, fly ball or ground ball, what the count was, what the next batter did his last time up. A real good scorekeeper will tell me what the pitch was that the guy up hit out of the park his last at bat, although I probably know that.

The score is the least of my worries, and usually kept on the scoreboard. Oh, if the scoreboard is not right I EXPECT my scorekeeper to alert me to this also.

I am speaking from coach perspective here. From umpire perspective, the scorekeeper, and assistants don't exist.

He's asking about the TEAM's scorekeeper (a member of teh coaching staff, sitting on the bench, ...) He's not asking about the Official Scorer (sitting in the press box, not related to either team, ...)

Sometimes those roles get blurred during youth games.

Thanks, Bob, that's what I meant. Remember in a lot of youth games, the home team's book keeper is used as the offical scorekeeper, although the visiting team should keep a second book in case a mistake is made in the "offical" book.

I love how they say this whole courtesy runner BS is meant to save time. We had a tournament game a few years ago where the person who was taken out for a courtesy runner did not put the gear on to catch the next half inning. 30 minutes of arguing and appealing to the site convenor took place, and the game was played under protest (protest was not upheld). So much for saving 35 seconds.

What was the arguing about and how did this lead to a protest?

I would say that they were arguing that the offense pulled the slow-assed catcher off the bases for a fast courtesy runner, then changed catchers, purposely defeating the purpose of the CR rule.

I would then venture to say that the idiot defensive coach filed a protest claiming that the offense can't do that, which is not true. While a shady, shiesty, dirty, underhanded move...perfectly legal to make a substitute as long as it's a legal sub.

Is that about how it went, Bob?

I'm a bit shady on the details, but I believe it was more a case of the protesting coach wanting some sort of advantage (an automatic out, or a forfeit) because the opposing coach took a runner out but that catcher did not come out to catch the next inning.

The policy in our region is that if the person they used the CDR for does not catch the next inning, any runs in the previous half inning are disallowed. No runs were scored during that half inning anyways, so it was just a case of one rat trying to gain an unfair advantage, and the other rat trying to gain a cheap advantage over him.

The arguing and controversy went on for at least half an hour. The plate umpire made a big mistake by saying to the coach whose team had just completed their half inning in the field, that he could protest the game if he wanted. That lengthened things quite a bit.

YGTBSM!

Does this policy apply only on the first and third Thursdays of each Month following the Vernal Equinox?


Tim.

It's just a policy Tim. What better alternative would you suggest?

I just think it's a silly policy, brother, that's all.

As the saying goes, "local rules are made by fools."

I'd suggest doing away with the CR altogether............


Tim.

Several better choices (imo) than taking runs off the board:

1) No penalty

2) Don't use the CR

3) If the previous F2 doesn't come back out and catch, the CR becomes a "regular sub" retroactively. (Note that this leads to the previous F2 catching for one pitch, then the substitution).

Stop thinking of it as a speed up rule and think of it as a participation rule (similar in that regard to the DH or EH rules).

USSSA 8.04.B: Courtesy runners may at any time be used for the pitcher and catcher of record the previous inning on defense.

Since my OP was USSSA specific, I'd be curious to know if this is being done in your USSSA tournaments. If it is, then LMan's comment ("U-trip has rules? Who knew?") makes a lot more sense to me.

Okay, disregard my stupidity. I'm now doubting Canadaump is using USSSA rules. :rolleyes:

Baseball Ontario rules. And when I said "CDR" I should have said "last out" because that is the player who pinch runs for the catcher. I agree that it is just a dumb rule, and it really looks stupid when you waste all that time asking for time, finding the last out, both runners switch up, and then the batter gets out on the first pitch.