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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 29, 2008, 12:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigUmp56
But what do I know.........

Tim.
Here's what I know: If the rules cover the action, I enforce it. If the rules do not, I don't.

I follow the rules under which the game is played and I don't invent rules and I don't transfer rules from one code to another.

To my knowledge the original post was in reference to a game played under OBR, not FED. I asked if there was a league rule covering the action and did not get a reply. Thus, my posts have addressed OBR, under which there is no penalty for the action you described.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 29, 2008, 12:17am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigUmp56
Steve,


Are you really going to allow a player to hit you, even accidentally, twice in one game with a thrown bat and not run him?



Tim.
I don't know. It never happened to me. I guess I didn't work enough small ball to find out.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 29, 2008, 12:22am
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Not trying to be smart about it, but aside from my first year umpiring and my very last 3/4 season with a band of Smitties, I never worked lower than Pony level in the 19 years in between, except for a few championships mixed in once every few years. (Not counting the Pinto games worked from behind the mound on those big Saturday/Sunday paydays )
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Last edited by SanDiegoSteve; Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 12:28am.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 29, 2008, 12:51am
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Carelessly throw the bat away from the catcher and myself, I don't care.

Throw it in our vicinity with force, and I care.

What I will do is leave the bat where it is (particurally if it is at the backstop), call time when the play is completely over, then walk over to the manager and tell him to take a look at where that bat ended up. Gets the message across firmly, but courteously.

Next time Johnny comes up, everybody will remind him "When you hit the ball, drop the bat". Including myself...

Like I said, if he is flipping it off to the sides I don't care one bit.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 29, 2008, 08:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6
How do you guys deal with a batter who tosses his bat after making contact with the ball? Do you eject the unsafe player immediately, or give him a warning? My procedure has been to wait till the inning is over, then write the offending player's number on my lineup card, and tell the coach "player number xx is getting his warning for throwing the bat". If he does it again, player is ejected.

I had a coach challenge my way of handling this situation, who stated that there was no rule about not throwing the bat. I feel rule 9.01a is sufficient to cover the handling of an unsafe player- part of the umpire's job is to maintain order and discipline on the field.
If the coach is right and there is no rule, then you have to let it go, imo.

If there is a rule, then enforce it -- and the enforcement will vary by the specific organization, whether "national" or local.

Since it's alocal issue, you mght get better feedback by asking others in those leagues.

If a warning is required by rule, I would give it immediately (at the end of the play during which it happens) rather than at the end of the (half-) inning.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 29, 2008, 10:19pm
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While OBR (the ruleset I use) doesn't specifically cover throwing the bat, I feel responsible for keeping players safe and that includes dealing with players who cannot play the game safely. Does nobody believe that enforcement of safety comes into play under rule 9.01a?

I have had so many games over the past couple years where a player will throw the bat, I tell the player and/or coach that he cannot throw it, and next at bat the player throws it again. It is very frustrating and really makes me wonder whether I am an umpire or a babysitter. It's one of the reasons I don't do much kiddieball anymore. Maybe I am just too picky.

Quote:
First, I did not quote you and was not posting to you, but if you work like Canadaump6 let me ask this: Do you see no difference between a player throwing a helmet purposefully and an incidentally thrown bat?
Do you not see a difference between the two? One is unsportsmanlike, while the other is just plain dangerous.

Last edited by canadaump6; Sun Jun 29, 2008 at 10:22pm.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 30, 2008, 06:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6
It's one of the reasons I don't do much kiddieball anymore. Maybe I am just too picky.
The game itself is dangerous. The specific issue (accidental bat throwing) is a league issue. If they don't think it warrants a league rule, then you shouldn't try to invent one during the game.

If you feel strongly about it, then propose a rules change to them.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 30, 2008, 02:34pm
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Quote:
If you feel strongly about it, then propose a rules change to them.
Quite so. That failing, limit your officiating
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 30, 2008, 03:54pm
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Still the youth leagues I do work off of USSSA, I usually ask the coach to speak to the player about how he needs to hold onto the bat a bit longer, after the first time it hits me or the catcher. Nothing too OOO, just a quick word as the next batter is coming up.

The second time the batter does it; I call time, pick up the bat myself, call the coach out and suggest that he might want to have the batter hold on to the bat clear until the next time he comes up so maybe he will get used to just letting it drop after his next at bat. Still not using a sarcastic tone or being mean, but getting the point across. A lot of coaches seem to think there actually is a rule that allows me to toss the kid.

Often get an apology the next time the batter comes up, and have actually seen coaches follow my advice (it is what I used to make my boys' teams do back when I was on the dark side).
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 30, 2008, 05:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6
While OBR (the ruleset I use) doesn't specifically cover throwing the bat, I feel responsible for keeping players safe and that includes dealing with players who cannot play the game safely. Does nobody believe that enforcement of safety comes into play under rule 9.01a?
If there is nothing in the OBR about a player throwing the bat and 9.01a does not cover it, then how about 9.01c.

(c) Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules.

If it comes down to saftey and there is nothing specifically about it, then this should cover it.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 30, 2008, 05:37pm
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I get really nervous when it is recommended to use 9.01c. It is a very slippery slope you tread on when you trot that one out, IMHO.

As far as Canada's philosophy of "I feel responsible for keeping players safe", how many HBP's do you allow before you eject a pitcher?
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 30, 2008, 06:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPatrino
...how many HBP's do you allow before you eject a pitcher?
In most adult leagues I've worked, 3 in a game or 2 in the same inning gets the pitcher an early hook.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 01, 2008, 07:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CenTexBlue
If there is nothing in the OBR about a player throwing the bat and 9.01a does not cover it, then how about 9.01c.
No, no, a thousand times no. 9.01c is not a license for you to make up rules.

The purpose of 9.01c is to allow the umpire to make a ruling in order to permit the game to move along when it gets stuck. Pitch in flight hits a bird. What's your call? Ball? Strike? No pitch? Do runners get to advance? That's the spot for 9.01c.

Just because the rules are silent on a matter does not mean that there's an omission calling for you to apply 9.01c.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 01, 2008, 09:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron
No, no, a thousand times no. 9.01c is not a license for you to make up rules.

The purpose of 9.01c is to allow the umpire to make a ruling in order to permit the game to move along when it gets stuck. Pitch in flight hits a bird. What's your call? Ball? Strike? No pitch? Do runners get to advance? That's the spot for 9.01c.

Just because the rules are silent on a matter does not mean that there's an omission calling for you to apply 9.01c.
There's a line somewhere, it's just a matter of where you draw it.
#22 swings hard, makes contact releases bat late, bat hits F2 in elbow. F2 has to leave game with possible broken bone.
Next time 22 is up similar scenario but this time bat hits you in the neck.
Defensive coach tells you he does not have a third catcher.
Your neck is already hurting and now you're risking being behind a novice catcher the rest of the day
Are you giving 22 a third at bat
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 01, 2008, 10:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CO ump
There's a line somewhere, it's just a matter of where you draw it.
#22 swings hard, makes contact releases bat late, bat hits F2 in elbow. F2 has to leave game with possible broken bone.
Next time 22 is up similar scenario but this time bat hits you in the neck.
Defensive coach tells you he does not have a third catcher.
Your neck is already hurting and now you're risking being behind a novice catcher the rest of the day
Are you giving 22 a third at bat
Or better yet, 22 throws the bat and cripples the catcher at his first at bat, and at his second at bat, throws his bat which bounces off the back-up catcher, killing him instantly, and hits the pitcher causing a compound fracture of his left elbow, splintering and putting out his right eye.

That ought to get you a couple of "votes."
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