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body position for Position B and C
Just wondering what everyone does with regards to their body position when in position B and C.
I've been told by a couple of evaluators to do different things. (Kind of tells you right there that there is no "right" position.) The two different positions I've been told are: 1) Alway face the plate. 2) face 3rd base dugout when in B and 1st base dugout when in C As well, when do you check for runners stealing. Do you cheat and look as the pitcher is throwing? Do you listen for footsteps or defense yelling? Do you simply wait for the catcher or pitcher to begin a throwing motion to a base before starting to get into position to make your call on a stolen base or pickoff? |
Plan A is to steal the third base coach's signals. Lacking that, I've tried to not cheat and just wait for a throw. As someone said once (or a few million times) there's no play without the ball.
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When in "B" with runner on first. I'm facing pitcher with my left foot barely dropped back towards baseline. My chest isn't really facing the pitcher or the batter but rather the distant space between the two. In "B" two outs runner on third, my chest points to the back of the pitcher.
In "C" My left foot is dropped slightly again with my chest pointing more towards the pitcher rather than the batter. |
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In both B & C I'm square to the plate. I find it helps my mechanics of stepping in (towards the 45') then "opening the gate" to get the best angle.
I tried not being square and it cheated me from getting the better angle. As for stealing, I listen for the foot steps and the defense yelling, but keep my eye on the ball. |
Body square to plate at all times. Once you see the pitcher commited to the plate, take a peak at the runner. When in C, just a quick glance over your right shoulder. When in B, just a quick glance to your left.
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As Emperor Ump and UMPTTS43 suggest, always "square to the plate".
When in "C", I was taught to do a quick "shoulder check" on the R2 when the pitcher commits to pitch. I find I rarely do this in actual practice. I stay square to the plate until the ball reaches the catcher or hits the bat (or batter). When I see the pitcher or the catcher begin an attempt to throw out a runner, I keep my eyes on the player with the ball and start moving into position to make the call, and let the throw "turn me" towards the play. JM |
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That would be true, but only with an idiot baserunner. A baserunner takes his signs while on the base so that's really should not be too much of an issue. I like to try and figure out the signs just for fun, especially in a low key game. Now in a big game, I'm all eyes, watching the F1. As far as steals, I would say experience is the key, and since I don't do "small ball" anymore, the players will help you. Either F3 or F4 or F6 will say "he's going". Then you will hear the footsteps etc., That allows you to keep your eyes focused on F1 for the potential balk. Even if you were to get fooled, you are in great position to see the play at either 3rd or 2nd so its' not that huge of a problem. Thanks David |
1) Face the plate in either B or C. Legs a bit over shoulder width apart, comfortable. It is easier to react to a batted ball right at you by going either forward left or forward right with your body directly facing this situation, than being squared to a baseline.
2) Pitcher not on rubber, relaxed standing. Watch pitcher for illegal action, listen for runner / fielders getting position. 3) Pitcher toes rubber and goes to look in to get sign. Drop into Hands on knees set, watch pitcher, glance / listen for runners. 4) As Pitcher is comming set, shift weight slightly forward onto balls of feet, this gets you ready to react to batted ball, or pickoff at bases. 5a) In B with R1, as pitcher begins motion to pitch, get a quick glance (shift of eyes to R1 to see if he's going, shift eyes back to home plate and watch action at home. 5b) In C with R2, as pitcher begins motion, swivel head to glance at R2 and see what he's doing, if going, begin to step toward 45 on 3rd base line and swivel head back to home to watch action. If R2 is not going, swivel head back and watch action at home. |
"B" and "C", I'm facing the plate.
Deep "B" and Deep "C", I'm more parallel to the baseline / grassline. |
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I do not listen for footsteps, care about what signals are given etc. As mentioned keep my eye on the ball as ultimately that will take me to where I need to be. Also, if you are facing first / third you could miss a balk call. Pete Booth |
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Watch the ball, nothing happens that is of concern to you without the ball. |
etn_ump,
FYI, from the PBUC "Red Book": Quote:
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I don't "sneak a peek" at R2 much. I find that I have sufficient time to get my angle on 3B based on what I hear and see. |
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As for the quick glances, are you up to date on your mechanics? Keep you eyes everlastingly on the ball and glance at runners. By taking quick glances, you are anticipating the play possibilities and not being caught off guard. :mad: :mad: :mad: |
I always face the plate. I do not take a peak at anything other than the pitcher and who has the ball. The minute I peak, I will lose a view as to what happen. I will look around if fielders are moving, but that is before the pitcher takes the rubber and usually when nothing is going on.
Peace |
When I'm in B with R1 I'm chest up to the 45' line and in middle to short B.
In this position I can look 45deg. (not over my shoulder) at F1 and all the action on the mound as well as home plate and also with just a move of the head (again, without having to look over my shoulder) see the pickoff at first. The pickoff at first sometimes can be very quick and I don't want to be moving during the tag nor do I want to be looking over my shoulder. For me, hands on my knees, very stable and just a turn of the head in short to middle B gives me a great angle and a steady look. |
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FYI. That would be contrary to "best practices" as described in the PBUC "red Book" and what is taught at Evans' schools. JM |
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Damn, all that time and money spent and I was taught wrong at school. |
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That's why I'm not turning my head to glance at a runner I can hear if he advances. I see no reason to glance and I am seldom caught off guard. I understand and have read the PBUC Red Book mechanics regarding glancing. I do not glance. When I am in B or C, I am closer to everyone on the field to the ball with the exception of the pitcher. I have ears. I have no reason to glance at a runner I can hear. At my age, I am going to watch the ball. Absolutely nothing is going to happen that requires my attention without the ball. |
It's hard to watch for a foul at the plate, hit batsman, checkswings, balks, etc if you are staring into the dugout.
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I've never had any evaluations mention it. I would like to know however what the cons of my approach are and the benefits of the best practices. |
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I don't see how the pros of checking over the shoulder at R2 outweigh the cons, especially in two man. You're not going to go to towards the 45 foot line until the pitch hits the mitt anyways, so it really does you no extra good to know that R2 is stealing (unless you are caught sleeping, which is a different story that shouldn't happen).
If you peak, you find out he's going, then stand in the same spot until the ball reaches the mitt. If you don't peak, you don't know he's going, but find out when you hear defense yelling, see F5 moving over out of the corner of your eye, hear footsteps behind you, and even if you don't know after all that, the catcher standing up to throw should be a hint (if you've waited this long, yes, you have lost a step or two). But, if you peak, you are compromising a check swing appeal, a foul ball off the foot, a balk (granted, not if done correctly), maybe even picking up a ball in play late because of eye movement as your head swivels back. This all being said, if I was told to look at R2 at school, I wouldn't say boo about it. But if I was writing the Bible of Umpiring, I would say don't do it. |
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Save your ink. |
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If you're so insecure in your abilities as an umpire that you have to peak at R1 or R2, you have more serious issues. JMHO |
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JEAPU - PBUC sez peek, ya peek (at R2). I paid $4000 for that tidbit, I'm gonna get my money's worth. I never understood why guys couldn't just step and turn toward first to see the throw, or the need to show your profile to home plate. I don't agree to disagree. You're wrong. You can disagree if you want, but you're still wrong. That's what people say without admitting they're wrong. As Rut says, "Peace" |
Helluva tidbit for $4000.
I ain't wrong. Been doing this for 30 years, Summer World Series finals, HS State tournaments, some D2 as I've gotten older, etc. Just because you paid some guys that work one base to tell you how to umpire don't necessarily mean they're right. Have great games. |
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Pay attention Ozzy, I already did. Here, I'll copy and paste it for you.
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Pay attention. |
Much ado...
Yeeeshhh....This has taken up multiple pages? There might be a recommended method, but like many issues in officiating, whatever works for you. If one prefers to take a quick glance at R2, so? Hopefully theyve arrived at that choice through trial and error, and find that works best for them. Or not. Doesnt make someone better than someone else, just as the ridiculous argument of using an indicator or not, makes someone better.
Slight tip that I use with R2. And it helps, me anyways. With R2, I will turn to take a look. But, instead of trying to get R2 in my sight, I turn my head slightly to the right, and pick up the area R2 would be running into, if he were going. If R2 "comes into frame", I start towards my spot for the steal of 3rd. I get that extra step, and am always set, waiting for the play. Huge difference. If he doesnt, I stay put. If he is going "late", I move when I recognize the steal. Usually on this, R2 is toast. Ive done it enough where I got the timing down. Hey, theres that "timing" thingy... Just my observation..works for me....your mileage may vary. |
Stick around
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I face F1 standing heel to toe. I'm too fat, too old and too slow to stand around w/my hands on my knees. I stand tall and set like a R or F3 w/my lower arms angled downward. Two-steps on a pickoff, short left first and then large right/turn into 1B. I'm calling safe unless I was sure of an out at 1B. I bite my lip at the acting job by F1/F3 and their teammates. Short rocker left-step on a pitch home, ready to move into the working area if the ball is put in play. I either reset if its not in play or move toward 1B for the throw across the IF; stopping as soon as F raises his glove to squeeze the catch. I should be still by the time I hear the mitt pop while trying to focus on the BR's front foot. Young PU has the 2nd call at 3B or 2nd call at 1B across IF cause I don't like them sittin' back there watching the game. I want them anticipating situations or reading players. Older gentlemen get more latitude. |
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Then I'm wondering what this was supposed to mean. Quote:
Tim. |
Sorry to derail this a bit... but OJD said I was wrong for not moving with the runner...
I was told as I was become certified by our clinician to not move from C until you knew the pitch would not be put in play, and never told otherwise since. Do I need to be moving with that runner? How much with him (keeping in mind I may still have a call at first to make in two man)? I do know to get to the 45 foot line and turn with the throw. Help? |
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Saw a varsity umpire set up between F6 and F5. PU w/ years of experience didn't tell him anything. Of course the guy probably meant well, but if he isn't standing in a proper C alignment, he might as well set up right behind the pitcher. Seems to me, the catcher's throw takes you to F5's glove and F5's glove takes you to the tag. Bang 'em if he's out {just sell it}. |
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Its all about angles, not how close you can get to the play. Thanks David |
Yes, it's all about angles, and that's why you move to the 45 when the runner breaks. If you wait for the ball to take you there, you won't have the angle.
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Well lets see, last time I checked Jim Evans worked more than one base, and it would be my guess just a game or two more than you. Oh and lets not forget a couple World Series, an ALCS or two. Oh yearh and them there All Star games, yeah I paid the guy, damn proud of it also. He says your wrong, PBUC says your wrong, but thats OK.. IMHO |
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BTW, NOT taking a peek at R2 will get you dinged on your NCAA eval. |
The peekers are right. The non-peekers are wrong. I think everyone is being a peeker head about the whole thing.:)
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The proper way to stand in B and C is facing the plate w/shoulders perpendicular to the plate. Just draw that line from the plate through right around the edge area of the mound, depending on the mound circumference and straddle it facing the plate. Then turn your head to watch the pitcher. It's just that easy. None of this "squared up with the foul line" nonsense. You should be ready to make an athletic movement in either direction when the ball is hit, and that's awfully hard to do if your body is misaligned.
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If I were a peeker
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Holy Cow!! I never realized there were so many different ways to stand in B and C!! And I must confess, I'm a peeker (in C only!!) Should we start 'peeker's anonymous' (sp?)?
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If I was referring to your post, I would have said so...but thanks for the conclusion jump no one asked for. |
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Edit: I did miss it in the OP. Glad I wasn't more sarcastic. At least the crow isn't quite as tough. Quote:
If so, I agree, difficult to make an athletic move. If you are saying that someone in the typical athletic stance that is, say at a 45 deg. angle to the plate can't make an athletic move when the ball is hit, then I disagree. Relative to B position, R1 only. Can you explain why square to the plate is ..."the proper way to stand"... I've explained my advantage by taking a 45 deg. stance. What disadvantages am I opening myself up to with this stance? |
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I stand corrected to both you and SDSteve. The OP actually mentioned facing the dugouts. Bad comprehension on my part. But I didn't totally jump to a conclusion. I did in CAPS say IF you were referring to my post. and Your Welcome |
I will peek on passed balls and wild pitches, where I feel I have a millisecond to look and not miss anything. And I do understand that at higher levels you will get dinged for not peeking, but from 9 y/o up you hear players, coaches, and everybody else yelling "he's going." Plus you can hear the steps if they are going behind you then he's going. It just seems unnecessary most of the time.
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2) Perception. |
I wouldn't call it insecure, so much....
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I was at JEAPU just this very January, and we were certainly told to glance over the right shoulder for R2 going or not. In fact, many a drill wouldn't start until the BU looked over the shoulder after "set" was called. Whether I was there looking for a job, or whether I was there to get better as an umpire, I was going to follow the teachings provided. And I'm still doing it, even if the redshirts aren't there to say "come talk to me" after the inning's over. You can call that insecure if you'd like. I'd prefer to say I learned something for my time. |
It's not a stare-down....
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Tuss, just how long do you thnk the peek lasts? It's not like I - as one that peeks - am trying to track the runner's progress all the way to the next base. Whether I'm looking for R1 stealing 2B or R2 stealing 3B, I don't make the look until I'm assured F1 is delivering the ball to the plate, and I turn my head and turn back. If the ball isn't delivered to the plate at the point I've determined it's time to glance, then it's bloody well a balk, so I haven't missed that. And I don't have anyone throwing 115mph heat, so I don't miss the check swing or the foul off the batter, or any of that other stuff. I'm not looking away long enough, nor is the ball there fast enough, for it to be a problem. Maybe you've seen someone do it, and don't like it, but I don't have the issues you mention with missing other stuff. |
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How often is that crucial, relative to the steady stable look you get on all 1b pick off moves? Realistically speaking There are many, many umps with bad knees that don't move far or fast but are very good umps. I could spot most of those guys a full 1 or 2 steps and still beat them to a spot. So taking a stance that gives you an advantage on pickoffs and puts you a 1/2 step behind when you need to move to the right is only an issue if you are not athletically able to recover that 1/2 step. Does that make sense? Quote:
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Yes, all you guys that are just peaking now, congratulations. I peaked many years ago myself. However you should still take a "peek" at R2 just to see if he's going or not.
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The way I set up I just turn my head, no change in elevation, no over the shoulder, no body movement. I think it's hard to argue that that is less effecient than a body turn. Quote:
At a 45 deg. angle my right foot(heel to heel) is displaced 18-20" from square up to home. My initial drop step is 20" longer than yours and then we're the same. It would be difficult to calculate the part of a second it takes to cover that 20" I can't recall ever being out of position on a straight steal at second I think Bob hit it on the nose. The real drawback to my position is Perception. |
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I quickly realized that when in C the runner would get to directly behind by back on his secondary lead. Can't peek over the right shoulder from there... so I figured my C position must have been very off, and moved myself closer to 2nd. Does this sound right? Then, there were some peeks where I could see the runner, and others where I never did (because he wasn't getting a big secondary, or because he was 2 steps behind the baseline) making my peek back obsolete. Does this ever happen? I also realized that in a Deep B with 2 outs, it is very easy to peek at an R2. And in B, also easy to peak at R1. But where I was getting a good peek at R2 was really from a deep C, not C at all. From where C is, I'd have to turn my head 180 degrees to see the kid... What am I doing wrong, if anything? (edited for the difference between peak and peek, for all the peekers of this peak performance post). |
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Interest in this topic has peaked.
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Lman,
I don't know. My curiosity is piqued. JM |
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