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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2008, 11:19am
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If I were a peeker

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
The peekers are right. The non-peekers are wrong. I think everyone is being a peeker head about the whole thing.
At what point in the pitchers peek do I take the time to pick a peek at the baserunner before I return my peekers to the plate?
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2008, 11:33am
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Holy Cow!! I never realized there were so many different ways to stand in B and C!! And I must confess, I'm a peeker (in C only!!) Should we start 'peeker's anonymous' (sp?)?
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2008, 12:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CO ump
IF you're referring to my post, I would encourage you to read it and comprehend.

If I was referring to your post, I would have said so...but thanks for the conclusion jump no one asked for.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2008, 12:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
The proper way to stand in B and C is facing the plate w/shoulders perpendicular to the plate. Just draw that line from the plate through right around the edge area of the mound, depending on the mound circumference and straddle it facing the plate. Then turn your head to watch the pitcher. It's just that easy. None of this "squared up with the foul line" nonsense.
I didn't read anyone saying to square up to the foul line. I must have missed it, but totally agree that that would be a difficult alignment.
Edit: I did miss it in the OP. Glad I wasn't more sarcastic. At least the crow isn't quite as tough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
You should be ready to make an athletic movement in either direction when the ball is hit, and that's awfully hard to do if your body is misaligned.
By misaligned do you mean some contorted 'twister' position?
If so, I agree, difficult to make an athletic move.
If you are saying that someone in the typical athletic stance that is, say at a 45 deg. angle to the plate can't make an athletic move when the ball is hit, then I disagree.

Relative to B position, R1 only.
Can you explain why square to the plate is ..."the proper way to stand"...
I've explained my advantage by taking a 45 deg. stance.
What disadvantages am I opening myself up to with this stance?

Last edited by CO ump; Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 12:51pm.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2008, 12:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LMan
If I was referring to your post, I would have said so...but thanks for the conclusion jump no one asked for.
My bad.
I stand corrected to both you and SDSteve.
The OP actually mentioned facing the dugouts. Bad comprehension on my part.

But I didn't totally jump to a conclusion. I did in CAPS say IF you were referring to my post.

and Your Welcome
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2008, 12:59pm
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I will peek on passed balls and wild pitches, where I feel I have a millisecond to look and not miss anything. And I do understand that at higher levels you will get dinged for not peeking, but from 9 y/o up you hear players, coaches, and everybody else yelling "he's going." Plus you can hear the steps if they are going behind you then he's going. It just seems unnecessary most of the time.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2008, 01:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CO ump
Relative to B position, R1 only.
Can you explain why square to the plate is ..."the proper way to stand"...
1) When the ball is hit, you might have to move right or left. It's harder to move to the right when you're already facing 1/2way left.

2) Perception.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2008, 01:49pm
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I wouldn't call it insecure, so much....

Quote:
Originally Posted by etn_ump
Well, we'll just agree to disagree.

If you're so insecure in your abilities as an umpire that you have to peak at R1 or R2, you have more serious issues.

JMHO
Humble or not, I'll disagree with your opinion.

I was at JEAPU just this very January, and we were certainly told to glance over the right shoulder for R2 going or not. In fact, many a drill wouldn't start until the BU looked over the shoulder after "set" was called.

Whether I was there looking for a job, or whether I was there to get better as an umpire, I was going to follow the teachings provided. And I'm still doing it, even if the redshirts aren't there to say "come talk to me" after the inning's over.

You can call that insecure if you'd like. I'd prefer to say I learned something for my time.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2008, 01:57pm
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It's not a stare-down....

Quote:
Originally Posted by TussAgee11
But, if you peak, you are compromising a check swing appeal, a foul ball off the foot, a balk (granted, not if done correctly), maybe even picking up a ball in play late because of eye movement as your head swivels back.

This all being said, if I was told to look at R2 at school, I wouldn't say boo about it. But if I was writing the Bible of Umpiring, I would say don't do it.
Okay, first off, I "peaked" years ago, more than likely. Either that, or I never did, and never will. Moving on.....

Tuss, just how long do you thnk the peek lasts? It's not like I - as one that peeks - am trying to track the runner's progress all the way to the next base. Whether I'm looking for R1 stealing 2B or R2 stealing 3B, I don't make the look until I'm assured F1 is delivering the ball to the plate, and I turn my head and turn back.

If the ball isn't delivered to the plate at the point I've determined it's time to glance, then it's bloody well a balk, so I haven't missed that. And I don't have anyone throwing 115mph heat, so I don't miss the check swing or the foul off the batter, or any of that other stuff. I'm not looking away long enough, nor is the ball there fast enough, for it to be a problem.

Maybe you've seen someone do it, and don't like it, but I don't have the issues you mention with missing other stuff.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2008, 02:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
1) When the ball is hit, you might have to move right or left. It's harder to move to the right when you're already facing 1/2way left.
I agree, you lose maybe a half step.
How often is that crucial, relative to the steady stable look you get on all 1b pick off moves?

Realistically speaking
There are many, many umps with bad knees that don't move far or fast but are very good umps. I could spot most of those guys a full 1 or 2 steps and still beat them to a spot.
So taking a stance that gives you an advantage on pickoffs and puts you a 1/2 step behind when you need to move to the right is only an issue if you are not athletically able to recover that 1/2 step.
Does that make sense?


Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
2) Perception.
Can't argue with that.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2008, 03:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CO ump
I agree, you lose maybe a half step.
How often is that crucial, relative to the steady stable look you get on all 1b pick off moves?

Realistically speaking
There are many, many umps with bad knees that don't move far or fast but are very good umps. I could spot most of those guys a full 1 or 2 steps and still beat them to a spot.
So taking a stance that gives you an advantage on pickoffs and puts you a 1/2 step behind when you need to move to the right is only an issue if you are not athletically able to recover that 1/2 step.
I was merely explaining the way it was/is taught. When you are in B, the proper first move on R1 stealing is to take a drop step with your right leg. Then you cross over step with the left leg as you take the ball over your left shoulder area and you end up in the cutout set for the play. How are you going to execute that crucial 1st step if you are at a 45 degree angle to the foul line. It's not a matter of "I can beat so-and-so to my position." It's a matter of I can get to the cutout in several steps less than you and probably much quicker. On pickoffs, I take a full step up and pivot on my left foot as I was taught by the pros. Perfect positioning to see the play. There is no need to cheat towards the 1st base line in my stance. It is not an advantage to be turned sideways to the plate. Being able to react quickly to any situation is far more of an advantage.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2008, 03:18pm
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Yes, all you guys that are just peaking now, congratulations. I peaked many years ago myself. However you should still take a "peek" at R2 just to see if he's going or not.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2008, 05:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
Yes, all you guys that are just peaking now, congratulations. I peaked many years ago myself. However you should still take a "peek" at R2 just to see if he's going or not.
Steve, use the Force! You need not peek. Let your feelings guide you and focus on the moment. But beware the Dark Side, it is fear that leads us there. Fear leads to hate; hate leads to anger; anger leads to suffering!
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2008, 07:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
How are you going to execute that crucial 1st step if you are at a 45 degree angle to the foul line. It's not a matter of "I can beat so-and-so to my position." It's a matter of I can get to the cutout in several steps less than you and probably much quicker. On pickoffs, I take a full step up and pivot on my left foot as I was taught by the pros. Perfect positioning to see the play. There is no need to cheat towards the 1st base line in my stance. It is not an advantage to be turned sideways to the plate. Being able to react quickly to any situation is far more of an advantage.
I'm not arguing that the book is wrong. I'm just saying that I prefer not having to take that step on a pickoff if I don't have to. Some of those pickoffs are so quick that you're not set at the tag or just barely so.
The way I set up I just turn my head, no change in elevation, no over the shoulder, no body movement. I think it's hard to argue that that is less effecient than a body turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
It's not a matter of "I can beat so-and-so to my position." It's a matter of I can get to the cutout in several steps less than you and probably much quicker..
I doubt it.
At a 45 deg. angle my right foot(heel to heel) is displaced 18-20" from square up to home.
My initial drop step is 20" longer than yours and then we're the same.
It would be difficult to calculate the part of a second it takes to cover that 20"
I can't recall ever being out of position on a straight steal at second


I think Bob hit it on the nose. The real drawback to my position is Perception.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 25, 2008, 07:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HokieUmp
Okay, first off, I "peaked" years ago, more than likely. Either that, or I never did, and never will. Moving on.....

Tuss, just how long do you thnk the peek lasts? It's not like I - as one that peeks - am trying to track the runner's progress all the way to the next base. Whether I'm looking for R1 stealing 2B or R2 stealing 3B, I don't make the look until I'm assured F1 is delivering the ball to the plate, and I turn my head and turn back.

If the ball isn't delivered to the plate at the point I've determined it's time to glance, then it's bloody well a balk, so I haven't missed that. And I don't have anyone throwing 115mph heat, so I don't miss the check swing or the foul off the batter, or any of that other stuff. I'm not looking away long enough, nor is the ball there fast enough, for it to be a problem.

Maybe you've seen someone do it, and don't like it, but I don't have the issues you mention with missing other stuff.
Well, I played around with it today... 16 year old Mickey Mantle League game (AAU teams mainly).

I quickly realized that when in C the runner would get to directly behind by back on his secondary lead. Can't peek over the right shoulder from there... so I figured my C position must have been very off, and moved myself closer to 2nd. Does this sound right?

Then, there were some peeks where I could see the runner, and others where I never did (because he wasn't getting a big secondary, or because he was 2 steps behind the baseline) making my peek back obsolete. Does this ever happen?

I also realized that in a Deep B with 2 outs, it is very easy to peek at an R2. And in B, also easy to peak at R1.

But where I was getting a good peek at R2 was really from a deep C, not C at all. From where C is, I'd have to turn my head 180 degrees to see the kid...

What am I doing wrong, if anything?

(edited for the difference between peak and peek, for all the peekers of this peak performance post).
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