How long to stop?
 

Called a 13-14 boys game tonight, OBR used. I'm BU. Visiting coach politely asked (no, really) me about the home pitcher not coming to a complete stop once he came set. He tried to say they have to come to a stop for a full second. Conversation was polite, I told him I'd keep an eye on both teams for that.

My question: after looking at OBR, it says "...The pitcher, following his stretch, must (a) hold the ball in both hands in front of his body and (b) come to a complete stop."

In my situation, kid was pausing, was short pause, but IMO he did come to a complete stop everytime, there was a discernable time of no movement. Just not long enough for the coaches taste.

What are the best practises for watching for this, as in how long a stop is long enough?

Dan,

If there was a "discernible time of no movement" that it seems to me that the pitcher was coming to a complete stop. There's no set time on how long he has to stop, like a half a second or some other arbitrary measurement. It's your judgment that counts, not the coaches. If you feel he came to a complete stop and didn't simply change directions, you're correct in not calling a balk.


Tim.

There should be a pause where the hands have stopped and the leg has not started to move. How long? Well...in my judgement coach..

danreeves,

From JEA:

So, the correct response to the coach is, "Not since 1964, Skip."

JM

Interesting, JM.
Thanks. :)

JM - are you sure you ever were a coach 'cause you're certainly not talking from the dark side anymore!:)

Very interesting, thanks for that information. Thought I was right not balking, and glad I now know the history behind the rule.

This is a great subject for debate. I have never been one to look to pick boogers like some umpires. Whether on dish or bases all I do is go through in my mind, rubber, set, delivery. I expect more than just a change of direction but I see so many umpires that want alot more of a set. I don't call alot of balks for the set unless it is obvious. Count to 2 very fast.

I agree with everything here except the last bit. Why not just enforce the rule as written? If you've got no "discernible stop," it's a balk, otherwise let it go. As usual, taking short cuts with the rules will get you in trouble at some point (for example, telling a knowledgeable coach: "see, coach, I count to 2 very fast, and if he starts his motion before that...").

Why are we debating the word "stop"?

A stop is when there is no motion over any interval of time (it can be .000001 theoretically).

So, if at some point everything stops moving, he has met the requirements of the rule.

Its really simple... don't over think it.

Absolutely.

If you can tell he stopped, he did. If you can't tell he stopped, he didn't.

As long as his hands have stopped before his lower body begins, he has stopped for all intense and purpose of the rule.

No, he hasn't.

There is nothing in the rules that mentions a discernable stop. They tried to add this in the late 80s, but it didn't last long. Bob Davidson and others were calling too many balks for not stopping, so they took the "discernable" part out of the language of the interpretation, leaving only "complete stop."

First off, those are some pretty serious purposes you must be talking about :D

Secondly, I disagree completely. You would not balk a kid if his hands stopped at his chest, but his shoulders kept turning, and then the lower body started?

Making up rules... catches up with you pretty quick.

I will say that the NCAA places a LOT more emphasis on "complete stop" than does MLB. When I watch a pro game I regularly see what I would balk in a college game.

JJ

Sorry obviously a concept your not ready to grasp just as yet. Not making up any rules, just a concept taught by the best at his school and video.

Of course justanotherblue didn't mean this. He meant that the pitcher had better come to a stop (which is not just his hands, but his whole body) before he lifts his kick leg. Pitchers are all the time trying to beat the rule by starting up with the leg while the hands are still on their way to the set position. Any turning of the shoulders once the pitchers hands come to a stop is of course a balk.

How the hell did you get that out of what he said? He made an unequivocal statement that had nothing to do with anything other than hands and lower body.

Explain then how this is fully meeting the rule...

"The pitcher, following his stretch, must (a) hold the ball in both hands in front of his body and (b) come to a complete stop." (8.01b, OBR)

Where in that does it say all that has to stop are his hands? He can stop his hands, then waggle his hips, then stop again, then have his lower body begin?

Perhaps you can clear up what you mean.

While jab's statement is over-reaching and not literally correct, it is correct in most situations. Most of the time, F1 comes set by lowering his joined hands while the rest of the body is still. He then starts his motion by raising the non-pivot foot. If the raising happens before the hands stop, it's a balk. If the hands stop first, it's legal.

In the .001% of the time whare this isn't F1's move, the comment doesn't apply.

The Evans balk video contains an example of this.

Bob, I agree that this is one way to see if F1 balks or not. Certainly the typical "no stop" balk happens when the lower body goes before the hands are stopped.

My point is to eliminate the confusion on why this is a balk. It is not a balk because the legs went before the hands were stopped (that is not in the rule book). It is a balk because the set position was not obtained by the pitcher because he did not come to a complete stop before pitching.

Saying that if he stops his hands before his legs go he is completely legal no matter what is incorrect and may be misleading to new umpires who read here...

As always, just my 2 cents.

Exactly my point. He (jab) said nothing about what Tuss was attributing to his statement. Justanotherblue was saying that the pitcher must stop before raising his kick leg, and that statement, by itself is quite true.

Reading is still fundamental.

That is the point. He did not say "no matter what." He gave one example. That the pitcher must come set before he lifts his non-pivot foot (kick leg). He must. It's part of the requirement to come to a complete stop. If he lifts his leg first, then he hasn't stopped, now has he? It's not the only requirement, but as Bob said, it is generally enough to satisfy the rule. You don't see too many pitchers wiggling around with their bodies as you described. Just doesn't happen.

I'll ask nicely once. Please do not condescend to me. My reading and writing are just fine, thank you.

Read what he said again. His statement by itself is NOT true, and did say what Tuss was attributing to his statement.

It would have been correct if he (jab) had merely said that the hands must stop before the lower body begins. However, the statement he made is that the hands are the ONLY things that need to stop before the lower body starts to move. (It's a conditional statement: if x, then y. If you want me to use symbolic logic on why his statement is incorrect, I can, but I think most people would rather I didn't. Besides, Venn diagrams don't work too well in this context, and proofs are boring.)

Yes, it does, especially with submariners.

Steve, we're quibbling about details here, but I'm game for another round...

Saying that stopping the hands before the lower body starts is "satisfying the rule for all intense and purposes" as JAB did (intensive purposes for those who wish to nitpick...but this isn't English class) is not true.

It does not satisfy the must come to a complete stop, it is just one part of a whole body that must stop...

Yes, the hands must stop as well, I'm not disputing that. All I'm saying is that EVERYTHING must stop, so don't look just for the hands to stop... look for EVERYTHING.

Sorry if I confused some of you. Let me try to clear my point. The OP wanted to know how long a pitchers hands have to be stopped, not moving...held still.. to be considered a discernable stop. For that part of the fricken rule, it is taught that as long as his hands have stopped Before his legs start, he has stopped. As for the over 30 different ways a pitcher can balk, depending on rule set, look em up:mad: As for the english portion, excuse me all the hell

It's INTENTS AND PURPOSES! If you're going to nitpick, at least do it correctly.