Neighborhood Play
 

Summer wood bat ball w/ American League rules (most of the players play at local colleges). As I was watching warm ups, I noticed neither middle infielder touching 2B. Do I allow the neighborhood play or does the player need to touch the bag?

Please tell me that you only officiate children's ball! I would hate to think that you officiate on the 90' diamiond and are asking this question. :eek:

Yes, at this age level the "neighborhood play" is correct.

What call were you looking to make during warm-ups?

I only officiate HS and NCAA ball and I don't play the neighborhood anymore. Isn't the FPSR supposed to eliminate unpredictable takeout slides? If a fielder can't touch the base and get out of the way of a fielder sliding directly in, it's not my problem.

"Safe" in warm-ups, "out" in games.....:p

Why do you have to be a JA and include the comment? FED rules protect the middle infielders. I made it clear that I was asking the question because this league uses American League slide rules and these are college players. BTW I umpired an entire HS season and the middle infielders touched the base every time!

:eek: Sigh! It amazes me how people with such thin skin survive in this business!

I officiate HS also and I rarely have the pivot man tounching the base. So I guess in different areas we have different results, don't we? Around here, the only people that touch the base on the DP is on LL fields and seeing as how I do not travel from State to State to "see how it's done there", I have to relate to what goes on here!

I look at what I need to look at. If there's a reason to have to look to see if F4/6 touches the base (an off-line throw, a strange angle to the base, ...) I do so. If it's a routine play where R1 is out by 30', then I'm not paying the touch much attention.

Ed Zachary. Just don't have a wide throw pulling the fielder 2 feet off the base so he can turn it and then argue for a neighborhood play at second.

It's the same at first base. If the BR is out by 15 feet, I don't really care if F3 pulls away early on a true throw. Now, if the play is a whacker, then F3 better stay there until the throw hits the glove.

We get disrespected enough by coaches, players and fans. We don't need to disrespect each other for trying to get it right!

Well,
 

I offer respect to only those that deserve it. Respect is earned not given.

Regards,

NJ ,you have to understand, if you have been asked to officiate Am Legion ball then you should have had enough experience to know that info, been better trained by your association or had that self determinations to be cracking the books for that type of info. Standing during warmups and watching and asking that question shows us that you are indeed a newbie.

Does that make you bad, NO. But Ozzy like myself, are asking why you were placed in a game by your assignor, over your head.

Making bad calls is troubling enough, being put into games that your not ready for causes problems for the teams, headaches for you and most of all discourages new officials from continuing.

Bob has given the most logical answer here but please spend time reading more books on officiating. This may be a source of info, but not the only one.
And as Ozzy has already said if your not tough enough for people you can't see, how are you going to last out on that diamond, face to face.

Good Luck

I guess I'm gonna be labeled a JA, too, but what are American League slide rules ?

Legion uses essentially the FED malicious contact rule & the NCAA FPSR.

http://www.baseball.legion.org/forms/alb_rules2008.pdf

Just to be clear on a point - the federation chapters here have nothing to do with summer ball or any leagues other than high school. Even during the high school season itself I can easily work with guys from 3 or 4 chapters other than my own. All I can say is here in North Jersey we're not all receiving the same training.

When the summer leagues roll around it's even more of a hodgepodge. Some of the partners you'll run into have never called a high school game in their life - let alone any higher levels.

What is so special about American Legion Ball? Where I live if you are open you can work that level if you are assigned. I am sure some people are not allowed to work that level based on who assigns it, but most people that work during the summer are working stuff they would not normally work during the regular season. What is the big deal about American Legion as if you have to be God's gift to umpiring to work it?

Peace

Could you please direct me to an authoratative book that lists which situations a failure to touch a base on a force out should result in an out.
My gut tells me no one of consequence would publish this notion for amateur ball. As someone already said, the FPSR rules have negated the need.
Now the only reason to allow it is because an old dog may not be able to learn a new trick.
I also doubt that even before FPSR there was an authoratative source publishing the approval of the nieghborhood out.
Therefore it was an allowance made by the umpires in certain regions at certain levels and such practice passed down by veteran to rookies or rookies at that level.
So njdev may be a very good ump and just not familiar with this particular level of ball. By asking the vets here on this forum for a little insight on the culture of AL ball he's shown wisdom and insight to recognize that there are differences in accepted practices between different levels of ball and is showing respect to the veterans, the league and the game by asking the question.

I have to disagree that the FPSR has totally negated the need for allowing the neighborhood play, CO. Forcing a runner to slide in a direct line into the bag may have diminished the frequency of injuries incurred on the turn, but it certainly didn't eliminate them. Similar to a phantom tag when a runner slides feet first directly into a base, I allow the fielder to clear his glove hand from possibly being spiked without actually looking for contact. So, on a double play ball I'm not looking to see perfect contact with the bag before the turn, provided the fielder doesn't do something unusual on the play.


Tim.

Not sure about your area, but around here Legion ball is pretty good summer ball. Worked a game last Friday where winning pitcher took a no hitter into the 9th and was removed when the leadoff man got a hit. He also hit 2 HR's and a double and his team won 6-0. The entire game lasted 2 hours. Not bad for summer. Legion ball here is not for the average Joe to work.

There is nothing wrong with that, but to assume that applies everywhere is kind of silly. In my area we have college wood bat leagues that have current D1 players and other level players that have pro experience players in leagues that umpires seem to be clamoring to do much more than AL ball. High School ball has also become more and more popular at least over my career (which Legion Ball once was where I started) and seems more and more common where I currently live. If you are a long time veteran, it is not unusual to have many take most of the summer off and the rookies are the ones working that kind of ball more than established umpires. I hardly work a single game outside of summer tournament near the end July and early August. I have not been hurt one time by that decision. And I do not see this ball any different than a poor man's varsity and I do enough HS varsity during the regular season. Maybe that is because a lot of students in my area are in a basketball gym playing basketball and you do not always get the best athletes playing baseball. Now football has taken off during the summer as well and many of the multi-sports athletes are not playing only baseball. I am now helping with a football clinic and there were kids this evening in pads, and the school just got second in 4A State Championship Baseball game over this past weekend. AL ball was very popular when I was in high school, but I am not seeing that anymore.

Peace

I will say the same things as DG said: Out here, yeah, you do have to be God's gift to umpiring, or a reasonable facscimilie to get assigned these games, as they are far more competitive than your everyday HS varsity ball, which out here is pretty damn good too. People aren't allowed to work it, not by who assigns it, but by their qualifications.

We have the wood bat/D-1 style games here too, and you have to be good to work those too. There isn't a level of ball offered in my association that I didn't work. But many other umpires were never assigned Legion or wood bat leagues. While you say that all you need to be is "open" to work that kind of ball may be true in your area, but obviously not in the area mentioned, which was the subject. You put inexperienced umpires on Legion ball here, you're asking for trouble.

If FPSR had been a part of the rules on day 1 do you think the neighborhood out would have evolved?
If steel spikes had never been allowed do you think the phantom tag would ever have been accepted?
If OBR outlawed steel spikes tomorrow I'd have a real hard time justifying a phantom tag. Doesn't mean a fielder couldn't get hurt by plastic cleats, but the liklihood would be so diminished that a strict observation of the tag rule would be in order. IMO

The FPSR took away the offenses ability to "break up" the double play so in order to keep the playing field even the defense should now be expected to actually make the out. IMHO

This may be devil's advocate, this may not be--I haven't decided.

In youth baseball (at levels where metal cleats are allowed,) the acceptance of neighborhood plays is more important than in the higher levels.

1. The runners are less baseball-savvy and will run/slide more aggressively than the situation warrants.

2. Runners are not as familiar with methods of giving up the first out without sliding.

3. FPSR causes runners to slide by default, even when there is no doubt to the outcome of the play and there are other methods of avoiding the fielder.

4. Fielders are not as highly skilled at avoiding a runner's feet.

Funny, I see players at all kinds of levels step on the base and get out of the way. I really do not see why this is a problem.

I also call this similar to what Bob says, unless it is obvious they do not touch the base, I am not nit-picking this situation. Unless there is a reason for me to really look hard and long at the feet, then the fielder touched the base. I also do not give a lot of leeway to the runner that is sliding into the base. If they cannot slide properly, then they need to get an out on a FPSR situation.

Peace

I don't call games based on misunderstandings of the rules.

My impression is that the "neighborhood" has gotten a lot smaller in the pros. I'm with Rich on this one: the fielder needs to touch the bag. Hey, even the rule says so. :eek:

Okay, since reading is fun and fundamental, let's review here:

The OP said the league used "American League" sliding rules.

Later, jicecone mentioned American Legion baseball for the first time in the thread.

Umpduck asked, "what are American League sliding rules?"

Socalblue gave the link for American Legion rules.

The discussion shifted to the FPSR and the qualifications for umpiring American Legion baseball.

We still did not address the original question asked of the OP's author, which is "what are the American League slide rules?"

I can't find anywhere that it says anything about this league being American Legion.

Legion is still the most competitive league in the south, but we like to use that league to train our "up and coming" young umpires during the summer.

We will team them with a veteran to help with training, but seems to work very well.

We have the wooden bat leagues, and although they have college players, its not that competitive to me, its just something the players are doing to bide the summer.

It is kind of funny to watch them try and hit with a wood bat though after using aluminum etc., during the season.

Thanks
David

Easy to find, they are right next to the rules on the DH.

From the OP

wood bat ball w/ American League rules

NO FPSR in Straight OBR

Therefore, are you going to allow the "neigborhood" in a game played by OBR rules?

Pete Booth

I'm not going to look for a missed base, but if it slaps me in the face, I'm going to call the runner safe. FPSR or no FPSR.

That statement inexperienced umpires is an oxy moron and I agree with RUT.

Just like when we played you get EXPERIENCE by playing not SITTING the PINE. "Someone" has to give us a chance. Just like when some of us graduated college and wanted that first job. Other than College we had NO experience other than our grade point average.

Hopefully an inexperienced official can get paired with an experienced official to promote advancement within the organization. If young umpires see that there is virtually no hope of getting these games membership will decline.

Typically what happens is "Politics" meaning the "top dogs" do not want to give up these games and are relunctant to train the new rookies who given the opportunity might actually replace them.

In Summary: This type of situation is an area by area answer. If umpires are in demand an assignor does his best to put the most qualified officials on the Legion/ CBL games but sometimes he/she simply cannot and the inexperienced offical will get their feet wet and IMO that is not a bad thing.

Pete Booth

So I suppose you let the runners touch the bag with the "neighborhood play" too correct?

Tell me, how close is close enough? 2"? 6"? 3'?

Call what you see. It is REALLY good for your integrity. ;)

Just as calling what's expected for the level you're working is good for your games and career.........

Do you force a fielder to leave his glove in a runners base path on a tag where the runner is sliding directly into a base, or do you allow them to swipe near the foot and get their hand out of the way............

I propose that it's better to call what you need to see.


Tim.

More rubbish. :mad:

It is interesting that many people think the neighborhood play is ok!

Now we have to allow phantom tags, runners to miss if they are "close enough", etc....:rolleyes:

A BUNCH OF RUBBISH!!!

CALL THE GAME!

The ONLY reason you guys give the neighborhood play is to avoid the argument that will ensue. I have a very easy explanation to the coach coming out to argue that. "Coach, if your fielder would have touched the bag, all would be well".

The problem I have with any "phantom" type of play is that when are you "close enough"? I have a feeling that most answers are going to be "sometimes you have to umpire"...or something equally stupid sounding. :rolleyes:

Flame away. I refuse to compromise my integrity.

Well, I do know that I have had a pretty decent career! Certainly, call a runner safe at second because the SS did a "neighborhood play" hasn't hurt my career. It actually caused a DIII head coach to request me for his home games when I called the SS off the bag during a conference game. The defensive coach didn't even come out of the dug out! That coach had just won the DIII national championship the year before too.

I have NEVER had a very serious argument calling the "neighborhood play" safe if that is what I see. No, I don't always see the miss, and indeed, I don't look THAT hard for it. But if I see him miss, I am going with safe as the call. I am perfectly willing to "discuss" the play with the coach. I have never ejected a player and/or coach over this play. I HAVE gained a lot of respect as the guy that "calls what he sees". THAT has been good for my career, because almost every coach wants integrity when the big game is on the line.

Yes, I have called safe runners who were not tagged. The usual response from the head coach is not being pissed at me, but rather something to the effect of "Make the ^$#$$ing tag next time" to his fielder.

I am supposing that many guys that let the phantom plays stand are also the guys milking 12" off the plate for a strike too, just because the catcher stuck it? :rolleyes:

The Proof
 

"I refuse to compromise my integrity."

I have worked with Rei several times over the years. I have a great respect for him.

Rei's schedule of games (both high school and college) has grown over the years because he is EXACTLY what he says he is.

I have worked with Rei (he was my BU) when there was an attempted steal of third. From an adjusted "C" Rei called a guy safe that appeared to be out by 10' to 15' . . . as the defensive coach started to approach my fellow crew mate he said: "Coach he has to tag the guy for an out, ask your third baseman if he made the tag?"

Even a quick look at F5 confirmed that there was no tag . . .

Could Rei have called the out . . . sure. But his integrity is so ingrained that would have been totally unlike him.

As I said earlier . . . times and things change . . . can we?

Regards,

Pete,
Is there any amateur baseball league, regardless of rule set, that does not play with some sort of modified FPSR?
Unless you are doing pro ball F4 and F6 are protected by rule. I don't think we need to be further coddling them. If we're going to make R1 live by the rules we ought to make F4/F6 live by the rules.

Hmmmm,
 

this discussion appears to be veering away from the 'call the game they expect' by Mr Porter (IIRC, my memory may be hazy) article we are familiar with. Would that be the case?

Would you call a breaking ball in the dirt (with dust cloud) a strike, if you thought it crossed the batter's front knee?

Would you call a strike if F2 set up his mitt 2 balls (or pick your personal limit) outside and F1 nailed it with a fastball?

Just asking...I'm mildly surprised at who's arguing which POV here.

I am right with you. If a fielder pulls the glove up before the runner arrives, I will call the runner safe every time. Yes, the fielder needs to be able to take a throw and put the glove down and let the runner slide into it.

I had a play in a college game this year -- steal of third. I had a great angle and F5 took the throw too far forward and R2 slid into the back of the base. Throw beat R2 by a lot, but the glove never came within 4 inches of R2. Safe. No brainer. Took some heat from the defensive head coach, but like I told him: I'm paid to get that angle and I'm sure that F5 would tell you he never got close to the tag." An inning later, I get a semi-apology from the assistant working first base. Whatever.

I'm consistent and unapologetic and if it costs me games, so be it. I've probably hung up my college schedule (I travel too much for work and I don't need to spend my entire weekends working 18-inning doubleheaders in 2-man crews 150 miles or more from the house with Earl Weaver-wannabes and an ejection every other weekend), but it's the same all the way down the ladder for me, too.

He better tag him if I am watching the play.

Now if I am in the middle of the diamond and I am a ways away I am not going to nit pick a tag to the millimeter. But if he wants to get a tag he better keep his glove down so that I can call the player out. I have never had a problem calling it that way my entire career. And if you know how to make a tag, you do not need to stay in the path of the runner.

Peace

Good point! ;)

Just want to check. Are you one of those guys that won't call a curve ball caught at the belt? ;) What about the fastball at the letters. BOTH are for sure strikes that few call, even though NCAA and NFHS wants these to be called strikes.

I call the high strike. It is hittable, and hittable for POWER! The low crap is bad for quick games. The angle the ball comes off the bat means a lot of hooks and spins, which means bad fielding.

So, shall we just call the WHOLE strike zone? LOL Nobody is going to do that, except in Little League.

In my mind, a bit of play in the strike zone is very different than phantom plays. There is no way for the offense to play against phantom plays, and these phantom plays are always "given" when the defense seems to have enough time to do them right.

With strike zone difference, it is a matter of the offense being able to work with/against it. A pitch 3" outside is VERY hittable for power. The low crap in the dirt is virtually un-hittable unless the batter gets VERY lucky.

So, while I will require a catcher to present a good looking strike to get a call, I will not give the phantom tag and neighborhood play. I think they are bad for learning baseball.

I hate to break it to you, I call the entire strike zone as my judgment can call it and I have very little if any problems. I also have not worked a LL game since 1998 and I have not had any major problems.

I think we worry too much as umpires what people are going to think. I agree on some level that we should call the game a certain way, but calling balls and strikes, out and safe calls are some of the easiest things you can do because you have one call or the other. And the last time I checked there was not instant replay on some dirt patch they call a baseball field at the level most of us work. Even if you work a D1 game there are not many cameras or some fancy software to determine if you are an inch off the plate or if the 3rd cleat in the middle was on the base or not. In baseball is more about consistency and if a player cannot make a routine play, then you have to decide if they deserve what they earned. I have never had a problem calling the game the way I do and it certainly has not hurt my career. And I can guarantee you I have also not tried as hard as most people here seem to do.

Peace

IMO calling the "neighborhood play" or "phantom tag" is NOT compromising one's integrity because it's called the SAME for both teams.

IMO, what compromises integrity is when one official is a "homer" and calls things one way for one team and completely different for the other team.

As long as an official is consistent for BOTH teams then IMO integrity is NOT an issue.

In conclusion IMO calling or not calling the neigborhood play/ phatom tag is not a question about integrity but a matter of one's style.

Pete Booth

More rubbish :eek:

So in other words, you will call it exactly like you think it should be unless you feel differently about how it should be. Good Luck Mr. Perfect, well maybe not always perfect or at least perfect when you think you should be perfect, I think.

Bottom line, if it works for you go with. The neighborhood play was accepted and expected in the leagues I worked.

All of us are newbies at one point. I have plenty of experience umpiring varsity games. I am asking the question to see how umpires who regularly officiate Legion ball interpret the rules (different than FED). How could I gain the experience if I never step on the field? I'm not going to find the answer to my question in a rule book!

Your right, but I encourage you to go beyond the rule books, there are many, many other articles and books both on and off the internet that talk about umpiring mechaincs, techiniques and phlosophy. Seek them out and read them with an open mind and develope a style that works for the leagues you work and associations you work for.

Good Luck

Well, Rei, I've been calling this for almost 30 years and I've never received a complaint. I do not do as some of our former (MLB) brothers have - almost 2 feet off the bag is not where I call it.

The best description I can give you is about a step off the bag. Pretty much what was taught in the late seventies in pro school. I've called this from HS through adult levels and never gave it much thought. Again, in this area, it is the expected call and the players work hard at getting just close enough.

Let's say it's not much different than a good F3 who pulls the foot off the bag to keep from getting "nailed". We've all seen that in pro and amateur baseball. Or how about that marginal strike that is really off the plate but still in the black. We all "give" a little whether you realize it or not. The only times I have ever seen the game called "pure" is when the Knickerbocker Games come to the area. There the Caller (umpire) sits to the side in his top hat and tails, nursing a beer and judging whether the "called-for" pitch was correctly thrown! ;)

In the 70s there was no FPSR
Old dogs need to keep up with the game:D

Yeah, I guess you are all correct in that statement! I should come up to speed, let's see:
I need to meet with my partners for every other call.

1. I need to go to my partner every time a coach challenges me.
2. I need to stop using the scissors when my back flairs up.
3. I must hold "church service" at the plate meeting and explain every detail of the game and how it will be called.
4. I need to justify my strike zone.
5. I need to accept that there are rising fastballs.
6. I need to understand that the batter may be frustrated with himself as he yells about my called strike three.
7. I need to stop using the double safe signal and figure out another way of emphasizing a close play.
8. I need to stop ejecting people for using "urban language" because this is the way they were brought up.
9. I need to stop using the neighborhood play because it was taught before FPSR.
10. I need to stop wearing my plate coat because no one else wears one.
11. I need to stop using my indicator on the bases because it is "unprofessional" even though I have CRS.
12. I need to be exactly where the CCA manual says to be because I am too stupid to decide for myself I need to be deep instead of shallow.
13. I need to make my calls faster because I have too much of a delay.
14. I need to accept IR in baseball because it will make the game more enjoyable for MLB fans and players. I should not be concerned with what it will do to the amateur side of the game.
15. I need to be nicer to other, younger, inexperienced officials because I am a crusty old fart that needs to come up to speed and have a better attitude.
16. I need to review this entire list and add more corrections each year.

And if you all hold your breath, I will accomplish these things in a quick and orderly fashion! Wait for it!

I call those every time.

Bottom half of the letters? often ;)

..and yes, I've caught some grief for both. Meh.


I never said that, in fact, my post implies I would not. I won't call a dirt ball a strike whether it nicked the zone or not. Eeeeeeeeehhveryone knows a dirt ball is too low, Blue! ;)


I will agree with a bit of your philosophy regarding the strike zone being a matter of interpretation, whereas the pivot man in a DP either touched the bag, or he did not.

However, I would reject your stated rationale for your zone...it all reads as coaching to me, and I don't see a consulting fee tacked onto my game check. {puts on his Rut hat} I could care less what's 'hittable' and what's not, and it's not my job to care about the players learning baseball techniques. That's the coaches job. If the teams learn a little about the rules along the way, its a bonus.