Ump Intentially Hit By Pitch?
 

This play took place during the GHSA championship game over the weekend. Stephens County is pitching to Cartersville, that went on to win the game and the title 13-1.
http://www.workhorsevideoproductions...he%20pitch.mpg

Crew didn't respond with any ejections, as it couldn't ascertain that the action was intentional, but GHSA is waiting for the school's investigation to be complete before it decides if further action is needed.
http://www.ajc.com/highschool/conten...ge_tab_newstab

Question is, was the action intentional? If so, what should be the penalty?

If intentional, eject those involved. Whether it's intentional: HTBT.

I can't get the video to open, but I will give my opinion of what to do if a pitch and catcher conspire to hit the PU with a pitch.

1) The PU will know that he was intentionally hit. How? The team will have been complaining about his balls and strike calling. The complaining will start early in the game; it will be by the team's batters, pitcher, catcher, and coaches.

2) After the PU has told everybody concerned to knock off the nonsense, the team will find small but detectable ways to show their displeasure at the PU's strike zone.

3) Finally, the catcher will set up way outside the pitch will come straight down the middle; the catcher will make no effort to catcht the pitch; and the PU will be hit by the pitch square in the middle of the chest.

4) When that happens, the pitcher, catcher, and head coach are gone.

MTD, Sr.

That's the way I'd call it. Catcher starts to put glove up, pulls it down and ducks.

F1, F2, HC would be done for the day.

The vid, IMHO, shows a FU pitch based on C's actions in frame by frame mode.

Dump the battery, the HC, anyone who laughs, ban them all for life, and pull the baseball program for a year at least.

That was intentional. The catcher pretended to be blocking a pitch in the dirt, but the pitch started out high and never dropped. Even the best breaking ball doesnt drop that much.

I saw something similar in a softball game. Coach had been on umps all night about every single call. They finally told him one more word and he was gone. Next batter, inside pitch, catcher leans way to the side, lets ball go by, but it missed the ump. Ump went and got the UIC and asked that he watched the rest of the game because he expected more trouble. Later that night I was talking with UIC and he asked my opinion if it was intentional or not. I told him that in my opinion it most certainly was, catcher made blatant attempt to move to let ball pass.

Definitely intentional. For those that didn't see the video, the catcher starts to drop to his knees as if blocking a pitch in the dirt just after the pitcher releases the ball.

Catcher, gone! Pitcher, gone! If the manager or anyone else makes a peep, gone!

Intentional-No Doubt...
 

About it! Wow, if anyone knows this crew please get the real story from them whenever you can and post it without naming names or name names, we all want to know what the heck went on.

The article said it was a fastball, but, watching the pitcher's arm motion, I thought it was a breaking ball that did not break. If it was a fastball, it was pretty weak for a state final, or even an average high school pitcher. I do think it was intentional, based on the catcher's actions. His drop was too exagerated.

wow...that's about all I can say...

-Josh

Arm motion looked like a curve ball to me... but I'd say 80% intentional.

If I were PU, I'd probably talk to the crew before ejecting to make sure I was right. Not the most blatant instance of a catcher letting one back on the umpire, but a pretty good one.

the catcher was blocking the pitch before it was even released...100% intentional...I'm dumping the battery...

then you'll probably have to dump the head coach as well after he comes unglued for trying to lie for his players.

I have heard many a story about this but have never had it happen to me (yet :0) It sure appears obvious intent but I was not there. I don't know if I would dump any body based on what I see in the vid but I do know one thing, the strike zone just got smaller (or larger) for the team in question!!! No place for that at any level.

I sent this link to an umpire friend of mine who had a short pitching career in the Majors. My comment to him was that certainly he didn't do this during his career...but may have thought about it a time or two. He said that they did accomplish it a few times in the minors, but in the minors they had all year and 120 games to work the timing out so it didn't appear obviously intentional. There would be an ejection or two taking place if it happened while he was working behind the plate though.

Man, that wasn't subtle at all. Heads on pikes!

No hesitation for me!

"Catch, you're gone! Pitch, you're gone!"

Manager says anything other than checking on my condition, he's gone, too!

*********************Edited 20:07 EDT****************

Wait a minute!!!!! Look at that video again, people! That ball hit the batter's helmet first, then hit the PU! It was not an intentional throw to the umpire! I withdraw my accusation above.

That ball didn't hit the batter's helmet - check out the batter's initial reaction.

After reading the article,it states the pitcher and his brother(shortstop)were jawing at the umpire about balls and strikes.Assuming they are using NFHS rules,why were those 2 kids still around in the fourth inning?:confused:
No question watching the catchers theatrics,definitely was an intentional act.There is no way a catcher at that level would go to the ground to block a pitch over his head.No place for that in any level,let alone high school ball.

Tuss,

WTF are you talkin' about? :confused:

JM

edited to add...

Tuss, My apologies.

Ozzy,

WTF you talkin' about? :confused:

JM

P.S. Just another reason why video replay should NOT be used to officiate baseball games.

His reaction seems to be alerting the runner not to advance.You would think that if it hit him,he would know the ball is dead.It is really hard to tell,but I think the catchers actions tell it all(hitting the dirt that early makes no sense.)

You're kidding, right?

Twice in American Legion Baseball I had to deal with this.

Once the pitcher began hitting everything but the strike zone and Daddy, who just happen to be the Coach started in on me along with his catcher and pitcher. This carried on for a short time and when they lost the lead, which was my fault of course, (4 walks in an inning), Daddy went out to talk to his boy and on the way had a few words to add.

Very next pitch was inside, right to the chest as the catcher moved his glove.

BYE BYE Daddy , son and catcher. All three suspended 3 games.

Second time 2 years later, catcher is giving lip the whole game about being called out on strikes. Finally I tell him I heard enough and that it was over.
Next pitch catcher drops glove and misses pitch, again to the chest. Stands up and immeadiately states the sun got in his eyes. Only thing he is wearing, he is wearing a sun shield on the top part of his mask.

I tell the catcher, "you won't have to worry about the sun anymore" and advise the coach to replace him. Next day the catcher is thrown out of the league because this was the second time it happen in the season.

True stories, my best advise, make sure you are squared up with the pitcher at all time so as to maximize protection provided and DO NOT be afraid to pull the trigger and eject someone.

Right. If it hit his helmet, his first and only reaction would be to get 1st base.

The first time I saw the video I thought it hit the batter as well. But I think it's just the camera angle. I don't think a batter would take one off the head and react that way.

I, however, do think he was attempting to throw a curve ball based on the hand position after his hand crosses his body. Then again, me might be purposely throwing a hanging curve :confused:

It's an odd situation

-Josh

There is no doubt that F1 is throwing a curve.

I put this video into stop motion here at work and I have to say, it looks close but I do not see any movement of the helmet. I agree that the batter's initial actions dictate that he was not hit.

UmpJM, you are correct about video replay. It causes second guessing and in this case probably the wrong decision. I guess I was right in my first, gut reaction - dump 'em!

Some additional information
 

I didn't include this info initially because I wanted everyone to judge based on what they saw, but reportedly there had been a lot of arguing about balls and strikes, with 9 SO's to that point, many on called third strikes.

The school is conducting its own investigation (so far, the coaches say it wasn't planned), but rest assured when that investigation is done the Georgia High School Association will step in and have something to say.

If you change the strike zone, you're just justifying (in their minds) the action. The FYC has no (or at least almost no) place in amateur ball. It can be used at some levels (pro ball, primarily) where everyone knows what is going on and where everyone agress it's the appropriate punishment for the crime.

If it was intentional, eject the perps.

The article said that the school apologized to the Georgia HS association. How about an apology to the umpires, who would've never had this happen had they stepped up and ejected F1 when he threw his helmet after getting rung up the previous inning.

I'm not sure exactly what preceeded this obviously intentional act, but from reading the rest of the posts I could say with certainty that there were probably incidents of unsportsmanlike conduct that went unaddressed during the game. I have learned from hard experience that if a crew ignores conduct that is inappropriate during the game that there will be severe consequences eventually.

This umpire is just lucky that the F1 threw an off-speed pitch. Lesson learned for all of us, don't ever let things get that far out of hand.

What is FYC? I know it's probably obvious but I'm brain dead today. {comment as you wish on the "today" qualifier}

-Josh

I think it means "F" You Call.

The next time I get one off the shoulder I'm going to toss the batter 'cause I think he fouled it off me intentionally!

OK, enough silliness. The thing that struck me was the BU's expression and steps toward home. It looked like HE was convinced it was intentional.

3rd base coach thought so too.

Good point about addressing unsportsmanlike actions early in the game. If you don't take care of business early, things can get out of control.

None of us were there to see what happened early, but my guess would be something that at the very minimum should have been addressed with some strong words to HC.

I just watched the vid.

Forget HTBT. The Ace Holleran Eject-o-Matic machine would have gone from 0-60 faster than a Murcielago.

As far as "breaking ball" the catcher is set-up for a FASTBALL. You don't set up high like that for a breaking ball. So, if he's set up for a fastball that's what he called for.

Agree completely. Also from hard experience, the same concept is also true in basketball and football.

Absolutely intentional. Dump the pitcher, catcher, and head coach at the minimum.

The clapping going on by the parents in the "red" stands lets you know where the kids got the idea in the first place.

I was going to comment on this earlier. Also check the actions of the third base coach. It appears that he said something to U3 just before time was signaled. I would love to know the rationale for not tossing anyone.

Won't happen to me because if the catcher moves way outside, I move with him.

I believe Carl used to say that if F2 sets up out of the strike zone then he doesn't want the pitch to be a strike, so I give him what he wants.

But you are right, the PU will know what's going on.

Thanks
David

Walt - to me it looked like PU was willing to shake it off and give them the benefit of the doubt. Of course, he couldn't see what F2 did.
I wonder how he feels NOW if he sees the slo-mo replay

I've got F1, F2, and the head coach launched. More than likely an assistant coach will speak up and he'll be launched too.

I had this happen to me one time. I rang the pitcher up on strike three to end an inning and the second pitch the next inning the catcher dropped his glove just as he was about to catch the pitch. It hit me directly in the mask. I immediately ejected the catcher and pitcher. The team was very undisiplined and the coach had no control.

Why just dump people?
 

If I am PU, the game is a forfeit.

I have this happen to me once, and if it ever happens again, somebody had better have very competent legal counsel.

If you read this thread, you will actually find two people trying to justify the actions of these two punks: http://www.nfhs.org/cgi-bin/ultimate...;f=10;t=001448

Disgusting.

Four-man crew I think. There were 3 other umps who were there and saw it all. If they don't pull the string themselves they should have told the PU exactly what they saw and let him toss them. If I'm working the bases and witness something like this I'll give my partner a moment to collect his thoughts and do the right thing but if he doesn't I will.

I can understand that it might be difficult for PU to realize what has happened. He's just tracking a pitch.

If anyone has had this happen to them before, did you know it right when it happened? Did you get some help from BU to assure yourself of what you think happened?

I have been hit directly in the mask before and there was no situation to make be believe it was intentional. Catcher just sucked.

In this case, given the situation and the catcher's reaction I got two ejections immediate, and another coming depending on reaction of the HC. If he comes out apologizing he stays, if he comes out arguing he's gone.

Yes it has happened to me...
 

In my case, I was a young umpire, and I was shocked more than anything else at first. Then when it hit me it was intentional, I got really, really mad, and that is when I started getting people, though instead of starting with F2, I started with F1, then F2, and then the manager...

As stated before it happened twice to me and you know immediately because of what has taken place in the game.

Granted, the PU had to be blocked out from seeing the catcher actions completly but it is quite obvious he made no intention of catching that pitch. His partners should have noticed that right off and stepped up. Playoff or not, you should be able to discern what has happened and sending some people home, or I am questioning your experience to be selected for that type of game.

It happened to me in 2003 in a varsity HS game, but it wasn't as obvious as the catcher ducking the pitch. Plus, I really had no proof or backup from my dillweed partner, who just stood out at his position studying the daisies. The previous inning there was a close play at the plate that went against this team. The next inning the pitcher threw a fastball inside which missed the catcher's mitt by a couple inches and nailed me on the right forearm (I was in the slot in the scissors with a RH batter). I knew it was intentional, but if I would have ran F2, F1 and the smug little coach, it would have gotten ugly and I would have been perceived as a red-a$$ hothead. I told the coach that I knew it was intentional, which he of course denied. I also told F2 that if he let another ball touch me again for any reason that he would be very sorry he had. The ball never came close to me the rest of the game.

I probably should have ran the trio, but as has been said before, the shock of the situation, that "I can't believe this just happened" feeling took over and by the time I figured it out the timing was all wrong for ejecting. I wish I had been working with a partner with backbone who would have stepped in and said "hey Steve, that looked intentional to me too, let's run some people here."

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sp...wild_0605.html


Seems fair.

Rat alert.

A $1,000 fine and probation for next season was the toughest penalty GHSA really could have meted out given the bylaws. Stephens County better watch itself next season, because every game report is going to be gone over with a fine tooth comb in the state office.

Oh, and now that I heard that Gatorade presented the pitcher with an award today, I'm switching to Powerade.

Looks like the school didn't convince anyone it was an accident ...

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sp...wild_0605.html

Actually, a Gatorade award was given to the shortstop of this particular game. His younger brother was on the mound.

The SS (who also has a 95mph heater) is expected to go in the first round of the draft tomorrow. Maybe that's why he wasn't ejected for throwing his helmet at the end of the previous inning.

Wow, I can't believe you didn't run the F1 and F2 if you knew it was intentional. Don't worry about the timing. Worry about getting your senses under you and making the right decision. I had F2 call time and go out and talk to his pitcher. The next pitch clipped me in the mask as the catcher let it go over his glove. It took me a couple of seconds to gauge the situation and I let the coach know he needed to replace both in the game as they had just been ejected. He started to argue, but I let him know right quick I wasn't in the mood and that he could go right with them if he so desired.

I might cut a little more slack on the arguing phase of the game, but when it comes to malicious contact or deliberately throwing at players or umpires, I pull the string quick and suddenly without any warning.

Blaming your partner for your failure to eject is a cop out in my opinion. I didn't worry one iota about my partner or his backbone. I made my call and earned much respect from my peers in doing so.

Well, I've never been one to shy away from an ejection before, and I certainly did not need to earn any respect from my peers as I have had that for many years now.

I knew it was intentional by instinct, not by anything else. As I said, it was not an obvious thing, and everyone there would have told me I was overreacting had I ran them. If the battery had conspired as you described, or gave some Masonic signals to each other prior to the pitch, I would have run them. To everyone there, those who weren't even paying attention to the play at the plate the inning before (or making the connection between the two events), it had to look like an accident, because the participants made it look accidental. The story that this thread is about was obviously not accidental. In this case, F2 took a dive. You know that F2 didn't dive because he got crossed up. He dove to make sure he didn't get in the way. In my case, the ball just flew past the catcher's target by a couple inches. Very different situation.

It certainly is good to see that you now are ejecting people. I was starting to worry. Keep it up and you'll catch up with me in 10-20 years.:)

That's a good theory. He's like Chrysler: too big to fail. :rolleyes:

got the school for a grand....i thought the online poll results in the article were interesting
http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sp...wild_0605.html

"Word!"

Can somebody please post that link again? The first three times weren't sufficient. TIA.

Here's a followup on the case if you havent seen it:


http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sp...wild_0605.html

Wow, just like the old TV show "You Asked For It."

Just desserts?
 

Don't know if this is "justice" or not, but it's nice to know that actions still have consequences.

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sp...hens_0606.html

College no longer wants Stephens Co. catcher
Gordon coach says umpire incident changed his mind on prospect

By TODD HOLCOMB
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 06/05/08

Matt Hill, the Stephens County High School catcher who allowed a pitch to strike an umpire last week, won't be playing baseball at Gordon College as a result of the incident.

Gordon College baseball coach Travis McClanahan said Thursday he spoke with Hill on Wednesday and withdrew an invitation for Hill to be a preferred walk-on with the team next season. Gordon College is located in Barnesville.

In the fourth inning of Sat*rday's game against Cartersville in the Class AAA championship series, Hill failed to catch a pitch from Cody Martin that struck the home plate umpire in the face mask. Stephens County was trailing 8-1 in a game it lost 13-1.

"We just felt with the results of the game and what he was involved in, we just didn't support that kind of behavior for returning or incoming players," McClanahan said.

According to Stephens County coach Mark Gosnell, Hill and Martin denied malicious intent and said the missed ball was the result of a mix-up in signals.

The Georgia High School Association fined Stephens county $1,000 and placed the baseball program on severe warning status Wednesday.

Hill has graduated and cannot be punished by the GHSA or Stephens County. Martin, a rising senior, was not disciplined.

"severe warning status" Is that like double secret probation?

"Severe warning status" means that any sportsmanship violations by a coach or player in 2009 will result in more severe penalties, including possible forfeits and being banned from the state playoffs.

Number 15, Dodgers. Different GA shortstop went #1.

The pitcher in question's brother went #15. Catcher wasn't drafted (at least in early rounds.)

One AJC article said many players were tossing helmets and carrying on. How many were dumped? Appears none. (Glad AJC has followed the story.)

Hey Padget, they were all born in Portland!! :D

Catcher had a walk on invite at Gordon college. He will keep his academic scholarship, but he is no longer welcome on the team.

BTW, umpire had MRI, is under doctors care not to umpire fo a period, and his attorney is looking into further action. This was umpire interview on Atlanta TV staion.

For more of your reading pleasure, go here;http://forums.scout.com/mb.aspx?S=37#s=37 Click on the Baseball Class AAA. YOu can read all you want!

The baseball gods took care of bidness. Always good to see.

It is obvious it was intential. As a one time coach you know the catcher is taught to never take his eye off the thrown ball, also the base runner. If you watch the video he clearly ducks and looks to the ground. No attention is paid to the base runner.

Should had been an immediate ejection. Only the umps there really no what was going through their minds at the time.

Parents are much worse now then they were even 10 years ago.

Which is why we ought to be permitted to carry a gun in our ball bags. One pull of the trigger and the problem's solved. :D

Nice goin' 25 - NOW we're going to have to hear from BUs wanting to carry a ball bag for just that reason!

Nah. Just stick a piece around one's ankles under the pants. That works every time. ;)

Ya know, a .45 in a cowboy holster would work too - you can put some balls in the other one, and you have a neat place for your lineup pencil

Why do you think they're called "bullet" pencils ?????

Team from Dillon,SC
 

Did the same thing to a CBUA umpire who immediately tossed the catcher. Later an assistant coach admitted to telling them to do it. I'm not sure if Dixie Boys Majors did anything to them - it happened during a State Tournament.:mad:

Sad but folks from that area have a poor reputation.

It's the second time I've seen it happen and both times it's intentional.

Did anyone catch the O'Reilly Factor Tuesday? Bill had a segment on this.

Check this out.
Looks like the umpire is reserving his right to sue.

been there, done that..
 

Well, sure looks to me like it's intentional. Catcher dropped his body and head when the pitch went straight ahead. Had this happen to me in HS varsity game couple years ago.

Pitcher thought I squeezed his zone inning before, lost his shut-out. After warm-up pitches, catcher went to mound. First pitch catcher flopped on ground and pitch went past my right ear. Had heard stories, but first time having it happen. Took a few seconds figuring out "did that just happen" and didn't dump anyone. Probably would have if pitch had hit me. All I can plead is inexperience. Told the catcher "that better not ever happen again" and finished the game. After talking to fellow umps over next couple of days, realized how I should have handled it and contacted my assignor. On his advice, I contacted the AD at the school and he wound up suspending the players for the next game. I'd definitely dump the battery if I had it to do again, especially since I got my collar bone broken by a foul ball a week ago while doing 14 year olds! If 14's can break bones, high school varsity and up could seriously hurt or kill someone!

Nice to see that the state assoc. is stepping up to the plate with max penalties. Also that the catcher is paying a price for his actions even though he's graduated already. Don't know if I agree if the PU decides to sue unless he was injured, might come under the category of frivolous/unnecessary lawsuit unless it's to pay for medical bills.

Definitely think that partners should have been aware of situation and stepped in to let PU know what had happened and give him more time/support/encouragement to dump players. Another case of "we all gotta stick together." Especially doing state playoffs, they should be experienced umps and know how to handle a situation like this better. Also think that young umps need a little bit more education on how to handle situations like this before they see them live and have to make that decision in real time.

Just my 2 (or 20) cents worth!

As an umpire I want to say one thing, but as a defense attorney I want to say another.:(

lawump,

How about you say BOTH, and we'll all GUESS which is which! :D

Could be fun.

JM

No prosecuting attorney viewpoint? :confused:

Sorry if this is Germans...
 

ESPN Rick Reilly article

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/st...t&lid=tab1pos1