Plate Problems...
 

I'm 5'11, 160 soaking wet. I use a heel toe stance with my right arm locked on my right knee and my left arm curled in towards to where my hand rests on my belt buckle.

I like using the GD system and giving myself just a touch of room behind the catcher. I've always found this to help me with timing and also in keeping a firm, steady stance.

Today, I realized something using this stance. I can't see the ball into the mitt at times, particularly at the ball at the knees. Then, I realized that perhaps this is directly related to the biggest problem I have as a PU, calling a consistant bottom part of the zone.

So, I played around a bit today in subtle ways. I moved closer to the catcher. But I started flinching and actually on one pitch closed my eyes. So I moved back. I tried to stand up a bit in my stance, and keep my back more perpendicular to the ground. That got my head a bit higher. I then brought my feet a little bit closer together. Again, head higher.

I'm not sure what the point of this post is other than to put my conscious out there for others to read. Are these good adjustments? What should I be looking for to know my positioning is good? Is it enough to just see over the catcher's helmet to the outside corner at the knees? If I am supposed to see the ball into the mitt, and visualize it again in my head, shouldn't I actually be able to see the catcher's glove?

What else do I need to do?

I know its hard to give advice on this stuff if you don't actually see me or my stance... I'm just looking for a general framework I guess to get me back on track. Maybe I can get a video or at least some pictures up.

This is hard to answer without seeing you...but, with that said, my guess would be go with your first adjustment (closer to the catcher) AND make sure you are over in the slot and then work on overcoming your flinching problem.

First of all, it is good to experiment, to find out what is comfortable to you. Your the one that needs to be able to have a consistent strike zone and still minimize your exposure to injury. There is NO perfect stance that works for everyone.

Having said that, a fellow umpire once suggested I go to what used to be called the wrestlers stand directly behind the catcher. I was having many problems in the slot seeing the outside pitch. One day, I tried the recommended stance and put myself directly behind the catcher and right over the center of the catchers head. Instantly, I found myself seeing the entire zone and being able watch, not so much the ball into the catchers glove but, read how the catcher was catching the ball. (Eg. Usually the catcher has to turn his glove over if the pitch is below the bottom of the strike zone. Not only does it look like a ball, but MOST of the time it is.) (And no not a big hanging duce). The catcher movement gives you many clues to indicate were the pitch was compared to the more visiable zone you are now looking at.


I was also able to clearly see both sides of the plate and started opening my zone wider yet stay consistant up down.

I expermented with that position and finally settled into one that put me just over the catchers head, and slightly into the slot (Right- Left).

May or may not work for you but, just for the heck of it, try one time setting up directly behind the catcher, just above his head and see how it feels.

From there, you can go to a Gerry Davis stance , Frank Sinature, Dean Martin or Chubby Checkers and find out what works for YOU.

Good Luck

Good advise already given.

You may want to combine those given and work more toward the slot and up higher. I have tried working high and in the slot more this year and have had many compliments on my consistancy. You can see both the zone, from working higher, and up and down from the slot.

Usually as you say, you miss the outside corner, but the catcher usually gives that pitch away by his glove movement. Also by working higher you can get a good look at it.

You ask, "What should I be looking for to know my positioning is good?"

When you don't have to eject anyone for arguing balls and strikes.

Since the above is so contradictory and your description of positioing with the GD stance is not part of the GD stance, it is really difficult to know where to begin to help you.

Which is it, do you use a heel toe position in the slot, or do you use the GD stance, or do you use a self-modified version of the GD stance?

Sounds like you are doing a bit of a modified GD stance which works very well, but not closer to F2.

I found that by moving back and moving into the slot more, that I was able to see the outside corner very well.

But its hard, just takes a lot of experimenting and work.

It also helps to work on it during a game with a good F2 who is going to stick the ball right where it really is so you can get used to seeing exactly where the pitch was etc.,

Thanks
David

GD is a system, not a stance. I use heel toe in the slot using GD. Arm length from the catcher, solid lock in with right arm on knee. GD is not a position or a stance, its a system. General guidelines.

You have a misunderstanding of the GD Stance {Gerry's terminology...others have since referred to it as a system since it incorporates what we consider a stance with positioning and posture.) The GD "system" does not utilize heel/toe, is set back much farther from the catcher, and does not have one rest his arm on his knee.

By your description, you are not using the GD stance. You are using the tusagee11 stance.

See: http://childress.officiating.com/?d=...vis+Part+I.pdf

and

http://childress.officiating.com/?d=...is+Part+II.pdf

on the left handed hitter it looks like you're still working in the RHB slot? Is that right?

[QUOTE]The "flinching part" is what IMO you have to work on.

There are times where we will be exposed and have to trust our equipment.

Example: We are in the slot and F2 sets up outside. We are now completely exposed and if the pitch does come inside we have to "trust" that F2 will catch the pitch.

Once you stop "flinching" then IMO you can move closer to F2 and see the low pitch more clearly.

Remember the pitch at the knees and on the corner is the bread and butter for F1 so we need to SEE that pitch and call it consistently.

Pete Booth

No, I just assumed RHB.

Reverse it for LHB.

While I would agree that GD has hands on both knees, it can be used either in heel toe or balanced. Therefore, its not a stance, it is a position...

Make up your mind. First, its not a stance it's a system and now it's not a stance, it's a position.

You don't seem to understand. I'll make one last attempt.

If you aren't using the prescribed posture/stance of the GD System (which by your description, you aren't), and if you aren't using the prescribed distance/positioning behind the catcher of the GD System, (which by your description, you aren't) then you are not using the GD System.

Calling a dog a cat doesn't make it a cat.

Well here's your problem! Try umpiring while completely dry! :)

I've maintained throughout the thread that GD is a system, not a stance.

I do maintain arms length behind the catcher. I don't know where you got the idea that I wasn't. I mentioned I moved closer to the catcher in the OP, but I did not mention how close I got.

I am using the GD system, just not the prescribed stance that is most seen with it (blanced). I use heel toe. It does not mean I am not using GD system. I see every pitch the same way, I am locked in to the same head height every pitch, I have distance between me and catcher.

I think it is you who is calling a dog a cat... but will give way if any more experienced members of the forum wish to chime in on it differently.

It just doesn't matter Tuss, use a Gerry Davis , Frank Sinature, Dean Martin or Chubby Checkers stance, but find out what works for YOU, and go with it.

"Therefore, its not a stance, it is a position..." TussAgee11


Gerry Davis describes his system as requiring at least four to six feet distance behind the catcher and utilizing a "wrestling stance."

No, you are not using the GD System. You aren't even using enough of the original (From a Gerry Davis clinic in 2002: feet squared, hands on knees, four to six feet behind the catcher, higher head set) to be considered a variation of a GD stance.

You can use whatever stance and positioning you want. It's just that when you claim to be using the GD and then describe something alien to it, you are confusing.

Tuss, the GD system, as I was taught it (by some guys named Davis and Ehret) advocates an aggressive slot position which means that you might seem a bit exposed at times. The upside of this is that you will always have a good, clear view of the outside corner and low pitches. If you creep back toward the catcher and get too low, the catcher is probably blocking your view of the outside corner and low pitch.

It is my personal opinion that you are never adequately locked in using just one hand/arm to lock. That's just my opinion, your mileage may vary. The GD system does not advocate a heel/toe relationship nor the wrapping of an arm in front of your stomach. The key to making the GD work is to be balanced and solid in your stance, consistent in your head height for a pitch to pitch view that never varies between batters, and relaxed so that you can use your eyes properly.

I would agree that the wrapping of the arm is something that I do differently with my stance. A clinician taught us this way, and in order to please him and hope to move up in the association, I adopted it.

However, Carl Childress points out under the title Balanced or Heal-Toe"The beauty of the System is that the experienced slot umpire can use either stance."

And I would also agree with your theory on being exposed more using GD. Experimented today back to hands on both knees, and took a nice shiner to the left forearm to a right handed batter. Came home and assumed the stance in a mirror, elbow was tucked in nicely. Happens I guess.

FWIW, and since you asked, I agree with Mr Umpire on this point.

You are borrowing some items from GD, and some items from somewhere else to develop your own stance. That's not bad (I do it, too), it's just confusing to me (and apparently others) when you describe it as "GD system".

Tuss, good that you are now putting both hands on your knees. Bad you got hit in the forearm, if I had a dime ....well you know the rest!! Have someone look at you while working the GD, (hopefully another GD user) and have them confirm that you are in the slot and not drifting back over toward the catcher. The reason I say this is, in 'normal' circumstances your left arm should be relatively protected by the RHB, and unless the pitch was inside and the batter moved, you shouldn't be getting hit there with regularity.

So, continue to work on it, don't give up and you will soon be able to call pitches that you might have not been seeing before.

RPatrino (not to be confused with the Louisville basketball "coach") et al:

Am I correct in assuming that my nose should be right on the inside corner?

Who the hell is Frank Sinature?

Big star back in the day in Loss Vehgas.

Also known as Old Bleu Ayes or the Chairman of the Bored.

Used to hang out with Dean Martini and Sammy Dasie

Tuss, the slot is the area between the batter and the inside part of the plate (you know this). Line yourself up in a position so that you can see the entire plate and the entire catcher's glove. That position most of the time is with your nose lined up with the inside of the plate. You might have to adjust and move in order to see the plate and glove, so don't be rigidly tied to that position.

Ed Hickox is the man.... bottom line I like the system he works he is decently close to the catcher and he works a modified GD so yeah THE MAN

Bill Hohn does it for me! I like his panache, his strike 3 call, his flair, his great timing and his low scissors he works. He and Tom Hallion are my two favorites to watch work the plate.

Jeff Nelson scissors, baby!

Has anyone seen the NCAA Softball CWS? Look at some of those plate stances!! OMG. I only do one or two FED softball games a year, no wonder they look at me funny in the GD!!

Are you talking about the exaggerated wide stance? That just does not look comfortable.

No, the wide stance is the GD, and it is actually very comfortable.

The stances I think look very uncomfortable are the ones where it looks like you're taking a dump in the woods.

I think we're talking about the same thing. The GD stance is one thing but a few umpires looked like they were trying to do the splits.

Were they tall umpires?
Those of us who are tall need to use the exaggerated wide stance in order to get just a little lower.

No, I don't believe so. I guess at 5'9", that's not a problem I have. ;)

I believe Mr. Patrino may be referring to the exaggerated "squared knees" (for lack of a better term) stances. Nothing like GD at all, which looks quite comfortable, even if you aren't used to it. He described it well as resembling an exercise in al fresco defecation. Bizarre looking.

Bob James

That is the one I'm referring to as well. "Square knees"...that's a good description.

Exactly, where the knees are perpendicular to the ground and the umpires head is tucked in next to the catchers, looking like he's whispering in the catcher's ear.

Its called heel-toe... (by the CCA Softball Manual)...they are recommended to be that way and when its all youve ever done its actaully comefortable. When Softball umpires work the GD they are required to be not less than 1ft away according to the CCA manual for softball so etheir way they are WAY closer than baseball. Even the Scissors.... different from baseball all together yet... the same.... When I work Softball I now work the GD(by the way since I dont want anyone flipping out about how the GD is a system I use It "modified") and I am in the slot and not more than 1 ft away from the back of the catcher... I have even added a little heel-toe to it. I can see the outside a TON better and my head stays locked which locks in the top and bottom. However When I work Baseball I work just like Ed Hickox because he is the man... Bottom LINE

I guess you want to be that close to be able to comment on the perfume the catcher is wearing at your post game talk?

it gives a really good view of the zone dont knock it till you do it. BTW those girls dont wear purfume (exce[t maybe the catcher from UCLA) they probably have more testosterone or human growth hormone than Giambi. one last thing is this: you have a manual and you work by it correct? I have the CCA baseball manual too and its used so when working softball shouldnt the CCA manual be used in how they should work?

ed hickox is still the man (he isnt the 4-6ft away that the GD "system" says to use etheir and he's got one of the most DEAD ON zones I have seen in the MLB)

KCG, use whatever manual you want and do whatever you feel comfortable. I just don't use the type of stance you do. I feel more comfy and I see the zone just fine, thanks, using the GD. I stand MORE then 1ft from the catcher as per the way I was taught.

Softball has a set way of doing things, and are somewhat rigid in their mechanics. My opinion is that baseball is far more interested in consistancy and accuracy of the actual calls and rule interpretations, rather then strictly enforcing how to signal outs/safe, ball/ strike and what kind of plate stance someone should use. In other words, baseball is more concerned that everyone know how to apply the rules, rather then have everyone look the same on the field.

Softball is just as concerned with that. My point was that if you have guidelines to follow they should be followed. Whatever they are. MLB umpires are not 4-6 ft away from the catcher as has been discussed on here. I can throw down at least 3 off the top of my head that arent. Now I am not saying that they are as close as I have stated that the CCA softball manual wants their umpires.

Before Brinkman retired, he sure was. I'm certain a lot of the GD umpires are a bit deeper than the heel-to-instep training they got at the schools, too.