Standoff at third
 

12U league, Dixie league Rules, which are modified OBR.

Ball hit to right field, bobbled, runner has wheels, makes it to third and starts to advance as throw comes in. Pitcher gets the ball and walks him back. Third base coach is telling his guy to go every time the pitcher starts to move back toward the mound, pitcher finally camps out in the third base line, five-ten ft away, ball in glove ready to tag.

My question: any rule I can use to break this standoff? I've looked and cannot find one. Runner was not going to simply stay and let pitcher return, pitcher was not going to let runner move and I'm not going to let us stand here all night. I'm also not going to coach the pitcher and catcher on how to handle this.

I solved it after about 20 seconds by calling time, pulled both coaches to the middle of the field and told them I was not going to let them turn this into a "mockery of a game" and if a standoff occured I was killing it from this point on. They said fine and we went on. I would just like to know if i solved it right and if not, what is the best way to handle this?

Flame away...:D

I would simply say, "knock it off guys, lets go". The same thing happens when a fielder at a base won't let a runner who just slid in get up. I just say, "let him up".. and we go on. We don't let the players run the game, we do.

The worst think you could have done was to call time and tell the coaches that you weren't going to let them turn this into a "mockery of a game." The word "mockery" in the rules book refers to running the bases in reverse order. What the pitcher and runner were doing may have been exsaperating to you but it was legal. The ball was live and the runner was trying to advance while the pitcher was trying to keeping him from advancing. It was especially wrong to call time when the base runner was not in contact with third base: runner off base with a live ball, do not call time for any reason except a possible injury or the ball becoming dead because a play made it become dead.

MTD, Sr.

The word in the book is "travesty," not "mockery."

After a "let's go" was ignored, perhaps I'm finding time to go clean the plate (lets not hash that debate out again). How about changing out that ball, there is a good solution. Had a hard time picking that last one up, here you go pitch!

I don't mind the way you handled it though... as long as that convo with the coaches was short and sweet and they didn't get a chance to interject.

I understand your point about not killing a play or calling time unless needed and agree. In my case the runner was on third, he was standing on the base. Had he been off base, or had F1 been trying to throw to F5 who's behind third or trying to tag the runner, I'm letting it play out.

Runner was on base, going to move IF F1 turns to go to the mound. F1 is 5 ft away down the baseline, ball in hand, refusing to move. We could have quite literally stood there till time ran out since home team was batting.

As for why I said mockery, it had nothing to do with the wording in 7.08 (i), which is actually "travesty" I was trying to get across the idea that I was not going to let them do things I felt were to delay or prolong the game.

And this is bad...why?

;)

Conversation was short, sweet, and gave no room for arguing. Both coaches had already been told "thats enough" on earlier bang-bang calls they disagreed with. The earlier stuff had not got to the point of being tossed and since this is a youth league i really don't want to toss unless it's just aggregious and rankly stupid.

but back to my first question. Besides a broad interpritation on 9.01 (c), is there any rule pertaining to a standoff with a lead runner like this?

call a 3 second violation, and if they don't cut it out, T someone up.

considered calling holding or delay of game, backing the runner back 10 yrds, but we have instant replay so i would have gotten ripped on that

:cool:

standing would have made us easier targets for the mosquitoes we were fighting with as it was. 9y/o outfielder almost got toted off by them. :eek:

danreeves1973,

I also do a lot of Dixie games and see this a lot. If it starts getting out of hand when the runner goes back to the bag we (being me or one of my partners) kill the play so that we can brush off the plate or adjust our gear. I actually had a coach try and argue with me that I could not call time just to stop this type of play. I explained to him that we need to keep the game moving as we we under a time limit. Never heard another word from him all year when we kill it.

I've seen this in LL. IMHO, defense is delaying the game here (moreso than the offense), since B-R is putting himself at risk of being put out. I'm calling "time" and telling F1 to either get back on the hill or make a play on the runner. Runner has every right to do what he's doing, and D has every right to put him out.

ace

Gotta love little boy ball.

ah yes, the bush league crap that we have to deal with in kiddie ball with daddy coach who rode the pine and was always picked last while growing up.

Stay right where you are and hail the jerk coach at 3rd base, "Hey coach, would you mind getting me a chair so I can relax while these gentlemen continue this?" I guarantee you, that the nonsense will cease!

Just one of the reasons I do not do "kiddie ball"!

As the pitcher's coach would it be ok to instruct the pitcher to request time once he has control of the ball and the runner is back on the bag? That's how we resolved this "issue" a few seasons ago and it seemed to work well but I couldn't tell you if this is/was a good way to proceed.

We're not the tenth player on defense as officials, so no, I wouldn't grant the coach time to allow his pitcher to return to the mound. What the defensive coach should be doing is teaching his pitchers to not turn their backs on the runner on their way back to the mound. If they've got the coordination to pitch a baseball, they certainly have the coordination to walk backwards toward the mound while holding the runner.


Tim.

THANK YOU!!!

I have mentioned this idea to probably four or five coaches over the past three years and always get this blank stare as they try and process the idea of a player walking backwards.

It surprises me that you're seeing this at the 12 year old level, Dan. When I worked a lot of youth ball I didn't see this at that level. It was the 9U kids that were constantly doing it. By age 12 they should have learned how to defend against it.


Tim.

Why not just hand the ball to the third baseman?
________
ROLL A JOINT

You mean do something that's really obvious?

Coaches in LL minors are usually really new at coaching. Combine this with their not understanding 7.13 (the no-leadoff rule) and you get really strange activity.

Because if the pitcher does, the third baseman will have to throw the ball back to the mound. At that age, and more pertinent with the inexperienced coaching, every time the ball is thrown from one fielder to another there's a good chance the ball will be misplayed. I understand what Rich was saying about 7.13, but remember, this thread began discussing USSSA 12U where there is no prohibition on lead offs.



Tim.

actually Dixie has a 7.13, not sure if it's exactly the same as LL's, but it does prohibit leading off. Once pitcher has the ball on the rubber, catcher is in position, runners must be on their bases.

sorry if my misclarification caused any confusion.

My bad, Dan. For some reason I thought we were discussing USSSA. I should have gone back and checked the first page of the thread. It wouldn't change what I was talking about though. All the runner has to do is show he's making an attempt to advance while the ball is on it's way back to the pitcher, and he cannot be forced back to the bag just because the battery is set. I looked at it this way when I coached my sons in minors. The defense has to execute several things to be successful in getting the runner out. They have to throw the ball twice, catch the ball twice, and execute a tag. The runner just has to book home and slide......


Tim.

correct me if I'm wrong cause I want to make sure I got this right, but as long as he makes no stop, no pause going from 3rd to home, even if the battery is set, he does not have to return. BUT, if he stops, send him back to 3rd.

I'm not sure about Dixie, Dan. LL say that as long as a runner is "legitimately" off of his base the pitcher cannot stop him by returning the ball to the rubber. This leaves it to our judgment as to whether the runner is legitimately making an attempt to advance, or just stalling to bait a bad throw. If it's the latter of the two I would return the runner, or he'd be at risk of a 7.13 violation.

Tim.

I had this coach that is always coming up with the best ways to handle any situation.

Here's what he had his kids do. After the pitch he had the catcher step up to the plate and check the runner. The pitcher immediately returned to the rubber and got ready to receive the throw back. The catcher once he had the runner in the standoff with no attempt either way, he would give a good crisp throw back to the pitcher who was in contact with the rubber. As soon as he caught it the runners were returning because they were not making an attempt rather just standing there trying to draw a throw.

I also have a partner that will always give the defense the benefit of the doubt if they execute everything and it is aplay that could go either way. That ussually slows the offensive coach down a little.

Dixie's rule returns the runner if he is not making a valid attempt to advance. Otherwise the pitcher does not stop continuous play by running to the rubber.

Thankfully, fastpitch has the LBR (look back rule) or Circle Rule that eliminates all this "cat and mouse" play.

I do like the LBR and I'd be curious to see how it would work in LL or Pony baesball.

I was going to suggest the LBR, but you guys beat me to it. Actually, some version of the LBR might be good for lower-level baseball if "taunting" as described in the OP is a problem. The LBR can work only in a game in which, when the pitcher has the ball on the mound, runners have to be on the bag and cannot take leads.

At the upper levels of softball there's some sentiment for getting rid of it as unnecessary.

A strict adoption of the LBR would require more than a little training for umpires, though. The LBR can get rather complicated; even some college coaches have misconceptions about it. And NCAA and ASA have some hairline differences.

Mark IMO you are missing the point. The PROFESSIONAL rules of baseball did not have 12 yr. olds in mind when they wrote the rules.

MLB alows "other' leagues to borrow their rules.

However, IMO the rules should then be modified to fit THEIR game. The "cat and mouse" game simply delays the game.

If a runner wants to advance then no problem advance but this "dancing" stuff needs to be stopped. The one rule that should be adopted for these "rug rag" divisions that would put a stop to this nonsense is this:

You either advance or retreat Once you start "dancing" then immediate dead ball runner out and other runners return to their TOP bases.

The point becomes moot once you hit the BIG diamond.

Now I know why TEE dislikes Kiddie ball.

Pete Booth