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Advice needed on "Hands part of the bat" myth
Long time umpire here going to coach my two sons' 10 and under rec team. The league uses FED rules with some modifications, and while the umpires are supposed to be certified, the ones they get for this age group are often teenagers or dads who think they know the rules even though they've never cracked open a rule book.
To my question: How do you explain to one of these umpires the falacy of the "hand part of the bat" myth? FED rules (as does OBR) does not state this clearly. As an umpire, I've tried to explain to coaches using rule 8.1.1d which states: A batter becomes a runner with the right to attempt to score by advancing to first, second, third and home bases in the listed order when...a pitched ball hits his person or clothing provided he does not strike at the ball; or (1) If he makes no effort to avoid being hit, or if the umpire calls the pitched ball a strike...... I've also tried to use Casebook 8.1.1D: When may a batter be hit by a pitch and not be awarded first base? RULING: 1) The pitch is a strike. 2) The batter does not attempt to avoid being hit. 3) With no runners on base, the pitch is illegal and is not ball four. 4) The batter attempted to hit the pitch. I've tried to show a coach that "hand part of the bat" is not listed as an exception, therefore the batter gets first base. Softball rules books are very clear on the subject, and this is one case I wish baseball rules books would follow. Anyway, how do some of you other umpires handle coaches who insist on this, and some of you more knowledgeable coaches hand umpires who still believe this? |
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To answer your question, it may be smart ***, but ask: "When was the last time you went and purchased new hands to go with the Bat?" The hands are attached to the person, and the rules state any part of the person so long as they are not attempting to hit the pitch. Be aware that there is also the provision that the batter needs to make some attempt to get out of the way. |
Question: how do you explain the fallacy of the "hand part of the bat" myth?
Answer: don't explain. Assert: "by rule, they are part of the player, not the bat." It helps if you know the rule number. When dealing with definitions, no explanation is possible or necessary. What needs explanation is the persistence of the (dumb) myth. |
Just for the heck of it, print out the 40 myth's of baseball and give it to them.
Might get them thinking http://www.eteamz.com/baseball/rules/obr/myths/ |
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Are you trying to explain this to a coach during a game or over a cold one? If it's during a game there really should be no trying to explain. "Coach the ball hit the batter, it was not a strike, he gets first." We're not out there to give rule seminars during the game. However, since it is a rules interp issue the coach has the right to question us on this so if he insists I'll say something like "Coach, I understand what you're saying and I can tell you that this is an often misunderstood rule, the hands are part of the batter not the bat." After this I'm not allowing anymore insisting. The coach is not using rule book references and neither am I. I'm not going to go on the defensive and try to prove my position. My position is the default position, the coach would have to prove his position with rule book references (which in this case he obviously cannot) not vice versa. If it's over a cold one I still doubt if I would spoon feed him rules. Challenge him to find a rule that proves his assertion, maybe that will get him to open the book. Afterall, he's still just a coach and your interp is the only one that matters. Let him attempt to change your mind |
And if you're a coach who knows the rule and dealing with an inexperienced umpire that doesn't - protest.
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Does this help? From the FED Casebook:
7.3.4 SITUATION B: B1 is at bat with a three-ball, two-strike count. He swings at the next pitch and the ball hits his right fist and, without contacting the bat, goes into foul territory. F2 retrieves the ball and throws to F3 who is covering first base and tags B1 with the ball. RULING: As soon as the ball hit the batter it became dead. B1 is declared out. To have the play ruled a foul ball, the ball would have to have hit the bat of B1 before it touched his hand. |
Bdtd: I keep an expanded copy of the rules myth document with me. If you search my name, I'm sure you'll find one of my posts about it. I post it near the concession stands in hope that somebody might actually educate themselves in the rules.
Rich: Unfortunately that wouldn't work in my state (Missouri) since no protests are allowed. A rules misinterpretation is supposed to be taken care of on the field by the coach pulling out the rule book and showing where the official is incorrect. It very difficult to show a rule that doesn't exist. I've tried the "I've never seen a bat with hands attached" approach as an umpire. It never seems to work. I may try to pull out the FED softball book and use it. It clearly says that the hands are not part of the bat. An inexperienced coach/umpire really doesn't understand that baseball and softball are different games and I may be able to use that. |
Protest
Like Rich pointed out. No use arguing, just protest his ruling. An umpire that losses a couple of protests will learn the rules sooner or later.
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Ask the Coach if the player drops his hands on the ground when he runs to first base :)
Make sure there are no Jim Abbott's on the field before doing so. |
For FED try using 2-40-a
Key words " . . contact with any part of the person or his clothing . . this includes: a. a pitched ball touching a batter, " The LL case book "The Right Call" clearly states that the hands are not part of the bat. |
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Is there a head umpire for the league? Or a commissioner? I would get this resolved with him and have him inform all the umpires of the rule. Or..if it happens that often...make sure to bring it up in the pre-game conference. Get it resolved before it happens.
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"Hold a bat away from your body. Release the bat. Did your hand fall with the bat? No? Now, do you still believe the hand is part of the bat? No? Thank you."
Bob |
reviving this thread just as a nice piece of easy reading...anybody had a coach come out and question this one, this season?
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I umpire and I coach.
As a coach, I had what should be a knowledgeable PONY umpire call a foul when a pitch hit my player on the back of the hand as he tried to lean away. Umpire Tom: "Foul ball! Batter, back in the box." Me (quietly and patiently): "Tom, the ball hit him, not the bat." Tom: "Kevin, it hit his hand; the hands are part of the bat." Me: [shakes head no] Tom: "You're an umpire; I'm surprised you don't know that." Me: [raised eyebrows, incredulous grin] (Arguing in public with a guy like that in front of others is a sign of stupidity) |
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Where did this come from?
I was trying to think where a myth like this would originate? Who thought this one up? All I could come up with is it makes the call easier for the lazy umpire. You don't have to determine if the ball hit the hands or the bat because it's all the same call. Somewhere on a sandlot field someone proabably made it up to make the call easier...it's always a foul ball and requires no determination if the ball hit the bat or the hands.
TwoBits - I think posting the 40 myths at the little league ballpark is a great idea! Hopefully people will share their wealth of new knowledge!! |
A parent at a recent game after I call a guy out on a banger: "Come on, Blue, tie goes to the runner!"
Sideline conversation with coach during a substitution: "You know, Casey [his actual name], your parents combine more words with less knowledge than any group of parents in the greater Los Angeles area." Reaction: couldn't stop laughing long enough to respond. Every time I looked at him the rest of the day and after the game, he started chuckling. |
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I do not know the origin of this myth, but perhaps its from: Quote:
JM |
I think you can count on the rules myths coming up in any youth game. That's where the myths thrive until they can bubble to the surface and get shot down by a good umpire.
I called an 11-12 yo game last month. The coach wanted a strike because the batter did not pull the bat back on a bunt attempt. Same coach in another game claimed he could change the batting order if the batters had not come up yet. I make it a point to quietly tell the coach the proper rule. If he becomes a rat, I'm not so quite. |
Tell the ump " Look blue... go to Dick's Sporting Goods, walk to the team sports section and look at the bats that are on the rack. Are there any hands attached to bat handle?" Then throw in a " I heard Lenscrafters is having a 2 for 1 sale this weekend..so you and your partner can save some money" Yah.... umpires love to hear that!
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Another recent encounter: Coach: "I played pro ball for 12 years for four different organizations, and I have never seen that call." Me: "That's great. How much experience do you have with high school?" |
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This is probably one of the stupidest things I have ever heard of - making a coach pull a rule book out on an umpire! |
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Two bits ~ an example I like to use for coaches and umpires alike: If the hands are part of the bat, and only the offense can use a bat......Coach, when your team is on defense, they have to leave their hands in the dugout.
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Whenever I hear "tie goes to the runner" I answer with "I guess that's where the expression 'tieing out a base hit' comes from."
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I tip my hat to you. We gotta work a game together soon, and I'll buy the post game refreshments. |
I was listening to a MLB game as I was on the road yesterday (Braves? Reds? can't remember who was playing) and a pitch ran in on the batter. The umpire said it hit the knob of the bat and called it a foul ball. One announcer said the replay clearly showed it hit the hand and the other guy said it was a foul ball because he was tightly gripping the bat when it hit him and, if you are tightly gripping the bat when hit on the hand, it is a foul ball.
I almost ran off the road. |
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Wow, one of my posts being lifted from the dead. I feel special.
Due to the enormous amount of rain this year, I haven't had the game load has I've had in the past, and haven't heard this one yet this year. Of course, there is still the summer baseball season... |
I heard it this season.
Couple innings later, from the same coach, I hear, "You called that a swing? That wasn't a swing! I want you to appeal it to the other umpire!" |
I had a game end this year with the final batter of the game striking out on a ball which hit his hands. R3 was the tying run. "Dead ball, the ball hit the batter while swinging." To my complete shock and surprise their was no arguement or questions.
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I had this situation happen to me tonight.
U14 game, FED rules, batter squares to bunt. Pitch is inside, batter pulls his bat infront of his body (toward the pitchers mound) and tries to turn out of the way. The pitch hits him in his hands. I, PU, award the batter first base. The opposing coach disagreed, saying that since he still had his bat out as if he were bunting (but while trying to avoid the pitch), that it should be a foul ball. I discussed this with my partner, and we still awarded the batter first base. Between innings, the opposing coach came out to discuss this with me again, and he said "But aren't the hands part of the bat?" I said "No, coach they aren't". And that was all that was said. Now looking at the rule book, it states that the batter is awarded if a pitch hits any part of his body (exception - if he doesn't try to move out of the way). I believe i got this call correct. Can anyone confirm this or put in their judgment? Thanks |
aschramm,
As described, you freakin' NAILED it. Do not ever question yourself again on this point. JM |
While checking equipment prior to a FED game, one of the bats had the batter's batting gloves attached. I looked at the coach and said "wow, I guess the hands are a part of the bat." To his credit, he just looked at me and rolled his eyes.
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Thanks UmpJM. I was pretty sure I had the call correct. The problem was that I was still thinking about it for the rest of the game (another 1 1/2 innings), and couldn't completely shake it off (and it was definitely distracting while trying to call balls and strikes). But after reading through the rule again, and reading through this thread, I'm glad I know that I made the correct call.
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good job! sometimes even though we think we know the rule...often times teams can place an ounce of doubt in us and it tears us up worse than anybody else on the field because we want to get them right...this is esp the case when you're working 1 man.
I could sit here and tell you that you need to move forward and not think about it after making the call...but I'd be lying if I said I've never doubted myself after the fact. Good job...it always feels good to get reassured that you got the play right. |
Here is one I didn't notice in the myth list or anyone seem to mention.
For OBR, it is a balk with runners on base and the 1B/3B has one or both feet in foul territory. I recalled this one b/c I heard of a 3 man crew where the 3B umpire called it a balk and no one corrected it. Another myth holding true. |
wow.
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Twice in one game
Anyone watching the nationally televised Twins-Brewers game on Sunday got two opportunities to learn that the "hands are not part of the bat". Crede got nailed on the hand and took first...had to leave the game eventually. Then, Mauer got hit inside on the hand. This one was more interesting, though, as the PU (Reliford, I believe) called it a foul ball (sure sounded like it). But, the Twins manager came out to argue and kept pointing to the batter's hand and it didn't look like PU wanted to look and was going to stand his ground. Then, Gardenhire, in classic form, whipped off his cap and started arguing more intensely and PU finally looked at the plunked hand of the batter and changed his call. This, of course, brought out the opposing manager who didn't like the call reversal (although PU made the correct call).
The announcers were terrible through the entire episode with Steve Phillips actually saying that Macha, the 'vicitim' of the correct call, should have argued the reversal more ardently and as a player he (Phillips) would have kicked him when he returned to the bench for not doing so. What they should have said was, "See! The hands are NOT part of the bat!" |
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I saw this happen a long time ago. A batter got hit on the hand and the umpire awarded first base. The deffensive coach came out and pleaded with the umpire "Its foul the hands are part of the bat." The umpire held his ground and the coach pleaded (it was more whining than argiung.) He kept whininh the entire half inning. The ump ignored him completely.
The next inning as the same team took the field, the other coach went out and said something to the umpire. The umpire cracked up but waved the coach off. I later asked the coach (a neighbor) what he said. He told the umpire that he shouldn't allow the entire defense to play the filed while holding part of the bat - safety issue. |
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I am OK with him informing the BU so he knows the rule for the next time. I am not OK with him telling a coach that his partner blew it and will call it right from now on. It sucks that the BU didn't know the rule and misapplied it. It is made worse by the PU not knowing when to shut his mouth. Now, he has just made a fool out of the BU and has no clue he did. Bad partner, bad!!!!!! |
Guys,
I had my first "hands are part of the bat" strike three today. Batter swung, the ball went into foul territory, batter was back in his on deck circile in obvious pain. The pitcher was throwing gas -- mid 80's is gas in my neck of the woods. I thought about it for a bit, then called him out on strikes...then from the fans in the stands -- one voice I recognized as a former MN Twin says in a normal voice but loud enough for me to hear it "blue, the hands are part of the bat, that's a foul ball" Then I was probably a bit more of a smarty pants when I said "do you take your bat out to the field with you?" Then he said that "I need to read a rule book. (that was the best part) I just grinned and walked away..internally, it always feels good to get those calls right. I probably didn't need to use that line since the both teams were actually pretty classy teams, but they are very competitive. So I can add a "hands are part of the bat' story to my jounal. I was getting a bit jealous after hearing all of your other stories |
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