Signals from the coach to the pitcher
 

We're an 11U rec team playing under USSSA and are 8 games into a 10 game season. A couple of our pitchers are capable of throwing different pitches (4- and 2-seam fastballs, change ups) as well as pick-offs. For these couple I call the pitches from the dugout. For the first time last night the PU informed me that I wasn't allowed to do that and that I had to signal to the catcher who would, in turn, signal to the pitcher.

I found the following reference in the USSSA rulebook in 8.08.A

Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher while standing on the rubber.

The rule then goes into great detail about the windup and set positions, and how a balk can be called, but never addresses what happens if the pitcher receives signs from someone other than the catcher. A couple of questions:

• Is there a penalty to doing this? The PU said he would have to do "something" if the opposing coach makes a stink and I was sufficiently chastened that I didn't think to ask what "something" was.
• Can the pitcher stay off the rubber, receive signs from me, reingage the rubber, then pitch (as long as he doesn't try to "quick pitch")?
• While I know I have to adhere to the rule, and the origin doesn't make much difference in the grand scheme of things, can anyone tell me why this rule is in effect? Is it the same in FED and NCAA?

I know my catchers should be able to do something like this but, to be honest, I'm not sure the catchers I have would be able to handle it (though I may be underestimating them).

Thanks.

This is an OBR rule, and is intended to prevent a quick pitch: the scenario to be prevented is one where the pitcher can hold a runner on base by straddling the rubber, take his sign, then step onto the plate and pitch before the runner can get any significant lead.

It is not the purpose of the rule to prevent anyone else from giving signs to the pitcher. So, properly interpreted, the rule would read, "If he takes a sign from the catcher, the pitcher shall do so while standing on the rubber."

As an umpire, I do not get involved in semeiotics, so I will not be looking into dugouts and watching every defensive player on the field to see whether they might be doing something that could be considered a "sign." I don't care whether the opponent complains: if they say that you're relaying signs from the dugout I'll say that's not illegal, and besides it doesn't look like signs to me.

To answer your questions:
1. OBR (and presumably USSSA) provides no penalty for taking signs from F2 off the rubber; it's a "don't do that." A quick pitch is an illegal pitch, of course.
2. Yes.
3. See above. FED and NCAA have the same rule, though the penalty is different (ball/balk in FED, ball in NCAA).

mb,

Can you give me the FED reference for that? I had a partner call a balk in an AAU game using FED rules, because F1 was off the rubber taking his sign. I spoke to him later in the game, to verify that's what he called it for. I disagreed at the time, but the moment had passed, anyway.

I tried looking it up in the rulebook that day, but all I found was the part that said what the pitcher was supposed to do - take his signs on the rubber - and no part that said Penalty: XXXX. I thought I looked carefully, but I guess I didn't.

Thanks!

The FED penalty for the "quick pitch/taking signs" (defined in ART 1) is on p. 42 "PENALTY (ART. 1, 2, 3):"

I agree with mb about the intent being to prevent the quick pitch. The only signals I care about are between me and my partner.

This is one of those "mountain/mole hill" things. Because it's hard to discern if a pitcher is indeed taking signs "off the rubber", the only thing the umpire should be concerned about is if the pitcher is quick-pitching. I've seen pitchers appear to be taking signs from a catcher when in fact he isn't taking signs at all, or is taking them from a bench coach. As long as he isn't quick-pitching, IMHO it's much ado about nothing. Maybe that's why OBR doesn't list a penalty..

JJ

Couple of things, 1) how complicated are your signals that you can't trust the catcher to accurately relay them to the pitcher. Solve this problem, make your signs simple, flash them to the catcher and have him relay them to the pitcher. You can also have your pitcher "peek" at you while you are giving the signs yet still have him get them 'officially' from the catcher. 2) If you are an umpire that worries about this infraction, GET A LIFE, and 3) what is semeiotics, and do I need a prescription for them?

See 6-1-1 (presumably this is on p. 42 of dash's rule book ;) ).

I would not have called a balk in your situation. For one thing, the rule is poorly written: by the letter of the rule, it's a balk when F2 gives the infield signs for the R1/R3 situation and F1 is not in contact.

Given the poor quality of the letter of the rule, we have to rely on its spirit, which is to prevent a quick pitch (which is always a balk with runners on, in any rule code).

As I say, I don't know who's signaling what to whom, and I don't want to know. As written, the FED rule seems unenforceable. But I do know a quick pitch when I see one (and I know how to deal with that).

Trust me, not that complicated (I'm not smart enough to come up with something too complex!). The thing I've found with 11U is that they are good at taking small amounts of information in and processing it. Only as we get to the end of the season are they able to start stringing things together ("Oh, the warm up we do with three shuffles then a run is related to how we lead off and steal? Who knew?":rolleyes:)

My primary catcher is unreliable with the basics of catching so I don't trust him to accurately relay what I'm calling either. I could work on it but, like I said, I didn't know it was a problem until yesterday. The season is almost over and my desire to add something new to the mix is limited.

Here's an other thought, why not have the catcher/pitcher call their own game? I've always wondered why coaches have to call every pitch. If he only throws a fastball and change-up, teach him when and how to use those pitches and let him learn the strategies of the pitch placement and speed changes. Just my 2cents. I coached for 15 years and almost never called a pitch. This is a learning environment, after all.

The rule is 6-1-1, but the penalty is set forth on the next page, at the end of 6-1-3.

I go back and forth over this, to be honest. Sometimes I think they are capable of it (I know my son and I talk contantly about pitch selection and why you throw certain pitches at certain times) but then there are other times when I think they are having trouble just hitting the glove so why not take something off their plate in terms of mental energy.

The other thing is while my son and I get to spend a bunch of time talking about pitch selection, I don't get to spend that same time with the other pitchers due to practice restrictions. I will admit, however, that when things start going south I will go out to them and say "No more signs, just 4-seam fastballs to the mitt."

Rufus, you hit the nail on the head, particularly with very young pitchers. Coaches tend to 'over complicate' things at this level ( sometimes I think HS Varsity coaches do too).

Keep things super simple. Limit the number of different pitches you throw, learn to throw your fastball for consistant strikes in different places (low, high, outside, inside). Use a 2 seamer and a 4 seamer. Learn to throw a change-up before you try a curve. Try to learn a cut fastball or slider. Don't walk anyone, ever.

This follows from the old adage (variously credited to George Bamberger and Ray Miller):
Work fast, change speeds, throw strikes.

There is nothing in any baseball rules code that prohibits a pitcher taking a signal from a coach or catcher while not in contact with the rubber, what is important is that the pitcher at least simulates taking a signal from the catcher while in contact with the rubber. As long as the pitcher is at least simulating taking a signal from the catcher then he has complied with the rules.

MTD, Sr.

Rufus -

Your coaching style seems to be refreshing and a nice break from what typically happens in youth sports.

You know your players better than I do, but I have some coaching experience as well as catching experience, and now 4 seasons as an umpire ranging from 10 year olds to adult leagues.

Just remember, and I think you have a good grasp of this, that every moment can be a teaching tool. At some point F2 is going to have to learn to give signs, and it is going to get harder and harder to catch effectively if he doesn't know what pitch is coming. Then me, as the umpire, gets hit more, and then I get cranky :eek: :p

I would suggest involving your catcher in this someway. Also, effective pitching is repetition of everything, similar to a free throw. It might not be a bad habit to have your pitcher take a sign every time, even if it is going to be just fastballs that inning. This will help with repetition, and may avoid balks in the future when he gets older. Certainly will make him not have to think about one more thing, as it will become a habit.

These are my takes as somebody involved in youth baseball, not as an umpire or from a rules standpoint. But umpiring alot has allowed me to see lots of stuff, so I hope you find my advice somewhat worthwhile.

Like I said Coach, you know the situation better than any of us, so I'll let you be the final judge. Just remember, every moment something can be learned at the 11U level :)

Good luck!

(p.s. See, I can be nice to coaches :eek: :p )

Geez Rufus, I couldn't care less where your pitcher is getting his signals from! Just as long as he isn't Quick Pitching, I am not doing anything. If the opposing coach comes to me, I am going to tell him to "get a life" and go back to the dugout! Coaches who worry about this crap are usually usless as coaches and umpires who try to enforce anything other than a Quick Pitch should find a life also!

Tuss - thank you for the thoughtful advice and I will take it into consideration, if not for this season (since we're almost done here in GA) then definitely for all stars and future seasons.

Your comment about getting clocked by pitches and getting cranky reminds me or our game this week. The PU clocked by a swung bat (on the thigh - no padding there) and then in the hand by a fastball that ticked over the catcher's mit. He had to leave the game after that one (His comment as he was doubled over was "Geez catch, you gotta get those" - and yes he was kidding). I referee basketball and would like to do baseball once the kids are safely out of any area I might officiate in, but stuff like that gives me pause. Don't have to worry about that stuff in basketball!

Ozzy - you sound like a very pratical official. Any time you want to umpire one of our games you are welcome to do so! I only wish I had your number handy so I could have given it to the PU in our game - it would have been a short, and to the point, conversation I'm sure!

No, I don't think he was. :rolleyes:

Rufus, you mention, "He had to leave the game after that one". Did he really leave the game after getting hit? Most of us get hit with varying frequency during the season, and I don't recall ever leaving a game.

Let me see if I follow it then:

The penalty says "The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded ... If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk."

The definition of an illegal pitch is "... an illegal act committed by the pitcher ..."

So the logic is: a pitcher taking the signs off the rubber is an illegal act, thus turning it into an illegal pitch (thanks to that vague definition above), thus making it a balk call.

Do I have that right? (Not trying to be sarcastic, I'm really trying to follow the logic, so I know what I'm debating.)

Having said all that, I don't agree one damn bit with it. I have multiple arguments against it:

1. It's just over-officiating. (That's the easy one, but depending on Official NFHS Dictate, that might not fly.)

2. The sentence right after the one about taking signals says "The pitching regulations begin when he intentionally contacts the pitchers's plate." So to me, if he's taking the signs off the rubber, he can't possibly be in violation of pitching regulations, so you can't balk him.

3. The penalty writeup is too vague, and doesn't seem to apply to that specific situation in 6-1-1. To me, anyway. And there's no other applicable penalty, so I wouldn't call anything.

From what I tried to find in the "Search" feature here a few weeks ago, I seemed to find postings that were mostly along the lines of "it's a 'don't do that' situation," and "I'm not balking that" more than any other response. Is there some official casebook notation, or newletter, or other NFHS directive that says "yes it is" or "no don't call that"?

Here's what happened to me. AAU U12 game, using FED rules. R3, XX out. Defensive coach - not HC, but one of the several in the dugout - hollers out about that. I tell him, "he's fine coach,"

"No, he's not!" (and more - I've already stopped listening.)

"He's fine. I'm not getting him."

And I turn to get ready for the next pitch. My mistake - and I admit it freely - was to not call time at this point and tell the kid "look, the rules do say you need to be on the rubber for the signs, so do us both a favor and do that, so he'll shut up." But I didn't, and we were getting ready for the next pitch.

So my partner (PU) immediately balks the kid next pitch. The coach "gets one over," and my partner shoves it in my ear, especially coming right after the exchange between me and the coach.

I wasn't sure that's what he got him for, so I asked an inning or two later. He said that's what it was for, and when I disagreed, he said it was a FED rule, and went through the logic of a runner not knowing when he can take a lead, and the pitcher being able to hold him close. My rebuttal to him was that although the rulebook says he can't do it, there's no penalty or action to take. He apparently felt the penalty after 6-1-3 applied.

But F1 wasn't trying to gain anything against the runner or batter. If anything, the kid was taking even longer than normal, not quick pitching. He'd take the sign, step back to the rubber, and still go through the prelim-stretch-set-pitch routine. So there was no advantage, so no reason to make a deal out of it. And this balked a run in, on top of it all.

So that's why I asked about the penalty in FED, because I didn't find anything to tell me I/we should balk the kid. And as I said, I don't feel like this penalty paragraph applies. Just my opinion.

Why is the defensive coach complaining about a potential balk on his own pitcher?

Yes, he left the game. I think part of it was there was another official who had just finished up a game on another field and was available to take over as PU (i.e., had the gear on) and that we were late in the game and down by 9 runs. I've had this official before and he's very experienced so I don't think he would have left unless (1) he was really hurt and (2) he didn't have a ready/capable replacement. It was very diconcerting to see him take the hit that hard because, as you say, I've seen take a couple off the coconut this year and not be phased by it. That's why nobody thought it odd that he went out (i.e., it must have been really bad).

Under a strict reading of the FED rules, and according to an old test question, yes, you have this right.

If the pitcher is "acting like he's on the rubber" (by bending over, one had at the side, looking in to the catcher, ...), then he should be on the rubber.

Say what?

I have listed below a number of threads in this Forum (and one that appeared in the NFHS Baseball Forum) that are about the same situation we are discussing in this thread. Threads 1 and 1a are the important ones. In Thread 1 please pay close attention to Posts 1 and 25 and in Thread 1a pay close attention to Jim Thompson's post of May 21, 2007, at 11:06pm.


1) http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?t=38108

1a) http://www.nfhs.org/cgi-bin/ultimate...;f=10;t=001034

2) http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...itching+rubber

3) http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...itching+rubber

4) http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...itching+rubber

5) http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...itching+rubber

6) http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...itching+rubber


MTD, Sr.

I was working a game earlier this week where the home team was severely overmatched by the visiting F1. They couldn't touch his fastball. So what did F1 do when he got ahead in the count? Throw a curveball, which the home team jumped all over.

I wanted to go over to the coach and tell him he was an idiot, but I didn't. Why would you ever stick down anything but number 1 if the other team proved they couldn't touch it no matter how many times the pitcher threw it?

Lovely. Let me tell you: As your partner witnessing this exchange, the pitcher would have to drop the ball or stop his motion mid-delivery for me to call a balk here. I'm surprised the other coach didn't get run for accusing the plate guy of letting the other coach make his calls.

How did the bus feel when your partner ran it over you?

Fed 6-2-5
 

I agree with those who state that it is not allowed and clearly defined to be a balk by rule. I can't figure out why "or places his feet on" or astride "the pitcher's plate" would be prohibited by rule. The rule is poorly written, however, "it is also a balk rule." Not only for a dangerous quick pitch to an unprepared hitter, but for an unfair advantage gained against a baserunner waiting to take his "fair" lead or trying to steal a base on the next pitch. Sorry coach, the pitcher can't straddle the pitcher's plate to delay the runner's early attempt to establish his position on the basepath.

I did not post anything about a pitcher taking signs. I simply posted that a pitcher may not straddle the rubber. If a pitcher is taking his signs while straddling the rubber; that's a balk. Step on or step off, but do not straddle. I haven't figured out how to step off legally without straddling the rubber first, so there must be some kind of timing involved. It also makes it uncomfortable for those who prefer to straddle the rubber just before stepping on, again a long delay must be an issue.

Note to FED editor
 

Does the 2008 edition still quote the umpire signals "dead ball" instead of time?

Read 6-2-5 to the end. Straddling the rubber is a balk WITHOUT HAVING THE BALL. This rule is often violated during a hidden ball trick attempt. Nothing wrong with straddling the rubber while holding the ball.

The rules don't cover mechanics. The ball is dead at the time of the balk. I believe the proper mechanic is to call the balk, call time, then award bases for the balk.

I assume that's about my post from Friday. Sorry - just re-read it; should have said "offensive coach."

He did come out to ask, but I didn't hear the exchange at all, and he seemed satisfied with the answer, as there was no continued grumbling. I wasn't sure at that exact moment what he balked him for, although I suspected (dreaded) it was for the not-on-the-rubber thing. I went down later to confirm it.

It didn't feel great, but surprisngly, it tasted like chicken! :)

My understanding is that FED wants time called, then the balk (perhaps Tee can confirm). However, a better practice is to call the balk and then time. If you do OBR based ball as well as FED, if you use the FED preferred mechanic you will get yourself in trouble.