Fair foul question
 

Here is a comment regarding fair and foul balls from the OBR rulebook.

Rule 2.00 (Fair Ball) Comment: If a fly ball lands in the infield between home and first base, or
home and third base, and then bounces to foul territory without touching a player or umpire and before
passing first or third base, it is a foul ball; or if the ball settles on foul territory or is touched by a player
on foul territory, it is a foul ball. If a fly ball lands on or beyond first or third base and then bounces to
foul territory, it is a fair hit.


Here is my question. When a fly ball lands between the mound and second base and then bounces untouched to foul territory between home and first. is the area behind the mound considered beyond first base? I always thought the answer was yes but a fellow ump disagrees. If the answer is no, how far does the ball have to fall to be considered beyond first or third base?

Well FED clears this up with the imaginary fair/foul line running from first to third. If it hits past that, it's fair.

OBR, some would say, that the imaginary line to mean 'past' is if you drew a line from first base to second base (that's the 'past first' line) and drew one from third to second (that's the 'past third' line). However, there really hasn't been an official interpretation stating this.

Fed observes that imaginary line between 3B and 1B. Neither OBR nor NCAA has any such provision. [2006 BRD, 103]

Some posters have argued otherwise, but until I see an official interpretation to the contrary, I'm going with the lines as bossman72 described them. I am as certain as anyone can be that those lines are correct.

Thirty years ago, I posed to the Sporting News the same question Jay R asked, except that I added that the ball "fell a few feet short of 2B" and spun foul. I received a brief answer: "Foul ball. The ball didn't pass a base."

How would an umpire judge that? You have a few guidelines to go off of: straight line from 1st to 3rd in some cases, and 1st to 2nd/2nd to 3rd in other cases. Are you really suggesting that an umpire is supposed to judge the actual distance that a ball traveled as being greater than or less than 90 feet, instead of "yes, it passed (or didnt pass) a direct line from two obvious points on the field"?

I am open to anything but, will the person that has ever witnessed this event, (ball hitting behind mound between mound and second base),

PLEASE STAND UP.

Maybe if the game was being played on asphalt, otherwise I just can't see it happening.

IMO it is probably why there is no answer because it has never happened.

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fellas, you are over thinking the thing. past first or third base means past FIRST or THIRD base. the foul lines run right along the edge of either bag. no matter where the ball initially lands, if it spins back untouched and crosses into foul ground by passing over the section of the foul line that extends from the plate to the base (marked in yellow in the diagram below), it is a foul ball. if it crosses into foul ground by passing over a section of the foul line that is at or beyond first or third base (marked in green in the diagram below), it is fair.

the blue curved line is indicating a towering fly ball in the infield. let's say this ball lands where this line ends in the area between the mound and the shortstop. for some reason, nobody is able to get a glove on it. let's assume it had so much spin on it that when it finally landed it took off spinning backward and rolled, untouched, across the 3rd base line and settled in foul ground (indicated by the purple line.) this is a foul ball. the distance it traveled has nothing to do with judging fair or foul.

the only thing we use to judge fair or foul is where the ball actually crossed the foul line. theoretically, you could move this same situation in the diagram so that the ball lands behind the shortstop in the outfield and then spins all the way back to the same spot as marked in the diagram. where did it cross the foul line? before the first or third base bag. foul ball. will it ever happen? probably not, unless, like was stated in another post, you are playing on asphalt or the old school artificial turf (not the field turf, the stuff that is carpet over cement like the old domed stadiums.)


http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/d...rangepopup.jpg

Bobby, what if the ball hits second base and rolls into foul territory?

thanks, SA.

I was being facetious.

My point is that if the ball touches second and it is fair, how can Bobby's example be a foul ball when the ball first landed behind second base?

I once had a ball hit the pitching plate and then bound foul between home and first base.
NF had a test question on the sitch for years.

Mentioning "past 2B" would be superfluous to the definition. A ball that first lands beyond 2B would also have to be past either 1B or 3B (or both).

It is possible, however, for a ball to contact the front of 2B but not be past 1B or 3B. This is why touching 2B is mentioned.

Can we dispense with this 90-foot arc idea? The rulesmakers intended no such measure. If they had intended such, then no mention of bases would be necessary. The rule would say simply "first lands on fair territory more than 90 feet from home plate."

Bobby, in your diagram, wouldn't where the ball landed be considered hitting 'past' 3rd base, thus making it fair? That's what we're arguing about. FED clears this up since that ball hits past an imaginary first to third line, thus making it fair.

We want to know what the OBR equivalent of that line is. Some say the line goes from 3rd to 2nd and from 1st to 2nd... some disagree.

there is no imaginary distance line in OBR. i don't care where the ball hit or landed. i care where it was touched, where it touched something (i.e. a base), where it ends up when it settles or is touched and how it got there. the ball in my diagram was popped up high within the infield, landed near the grass/dirt line near the SS position, then spun backward across the 3B foul line before passing 3B, before being touched by a fielder, and before touching a base.

my judgement has alwasy been that once the ball crosses the 90 x 90 square it's in play...fair ball.

Unless I'm reading it wrong, the diagram depicts a pop that has first hit outside the 90 × 90 box. That's a fair ball no matter what happens next.

greymule,

I believe you are reading bobbybanaduck's diagram differently from what he intended.

By my read, the line depicting the flight path of the ball is intended to indicate that the ball is "in flight" until the small "break" in the line just inside the infield grass in front of the traditional shortstop position. I believe he intended the "break" in the line to indicate the point where the ball first touched the ground. If my read is correct, I would agree with his assertion that, if untouched, this would properly be ruled a foul ball under OBR rules (though this would properly be ruled a fair ball under FED rules).

bobby,

I gotta respectfully, but vehemently, disagree! You are completely disregarding one of the criteria used to judge the fair/foul status of a legally batted ball, namely:

If an untouched "in flight" batted ball first touches the ground beyond 1st or 3rd base in fair territory, it is irrevocably a fair ball. If an untouched "in flight" batted ball first touches the ground beyond 1st or 3rd base in foul territory, it is irrevocably a foul ball. Says so right in the rules.

So, what is the proper criteria for determining whether or not a ball that is not "near the lines" is "beyond 1st or 3rd base"? The best clue we have from the rules is (my emphasis):

So, for OBR, a ball which first hits the ground beyond the 90' square whose corners are the base points in fair territory IS "beyond 1st or 3rd base" and is irrevocably fair.

JM

"on or beyond" reads to me to be in the vicinity of 1st or 3rd base. by your logic, any ball that lands 90.0000000000000000000000000001 feet from home plate is irrevocably fair, yes? if so, then you contradicted yourself in agreeing that the ball in my diagram would be fair, because that point is more than 90 feet from the plate. i wasn't disregarding the criteria posted, i was assuming that we all knew that one. but i assumed too much because of my read of the rule, which i stated in the opening.

you're read of the diagram is correct. the ball lands where the break in the two lines is. the lines are actually 2 different colors, but they didn't come out looking very different.

the ball lands where the break in the two lines is

Then I was reading the diagram wrong. So I agree: foul.

bobby,

No, by by my logic, any untouched batted ball that first hits the ground in fair territory beyond the "technical infield" - i.e., beyond the square defined by the four base points - is irrevocably fair. I believe this is the proper OBR interpretation.

"On the lines" the ball would have to go at least 90.00000000000000001', while "dead center" it would have to go at least 127.3750000000000001'. Between the lines and dead center, it would have to travel at least a proportionate distance between those two.

I thought the segments of the broken line were two different colors, but I wasn't sure on my monitor. :rolleyes:

JM

Even Tiger or Phil couldn't back up a ball that far!:rolleyes: