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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sat Apr 12, 2008, 12:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rei
One time, while I was an Assistant Referee in a soccer game, the center referee came up to me, after he made a controversial call that resulted in a Penalty Kick, and asked "You like cake don't you?".
This is great as long as your partner wasn't that one strange kid you knew in third grade who didn't like cake!
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sat Apr 12, 2008, 02:34pm
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Couple of things on this post. If you clearly saw a pulled foot at first, why would you over-rule and call an out? Now, for some reason, we have had a very spirited debate ever since the winter meetings about how to handle a situation like this. My take is, ask for help BEFORE making the safe/out call and make only ONE call. However, we are being told, make the call you see and then sort it out.

This post seems sort of backwards, though, almost like asking for help after you call a strike on a check swing. "Blue, get help on that, i think he held up". Maybe its just me.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sat Apr 12, 2008, 02:46pm
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Bob,

We had this same "debate" during our NCAA meetings in Cleveland this year. I vehemently disagreed that the base ump should make a call, then call time, then consult, then change the call. How could anyone alive possibly believe this is better than immediately going to your partner for help BEFORE making a call and getting one, fluid call?

I'll tell you this: when I used to do it this "old guard" way--making a call then having the typical committee meeting then reversing the call--I'd have an argument every frickin' time. Ever since going to the "getting help before making the call" situation, I have yet to have one argument.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sat Apr 12, 2008, 03:05pm
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UMP25, we are in 100% agreement.

My experience has been that the problems come from making 2 calls, which believe it or not, causes BOTH teams to question you, VS. having perhaps NO argument if we consult and get the call right the first time.

I, however, am done arguing about this. I did that back in Feb. LOL
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 08:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UMP25
Bob,

We had this same "debate" during our NCAA meetings in Cleveland this year. I vehemently disagreed that the base ump should make a call, then call time, then consult, then change the call. How could anyone alive possibly believe this is better than immediately going to your partner for help BEFORE making a call and getting one, fluid call?
Just to speak to this narrow question: the rationale might be that (a) it's BU's call and he should make it, (b) by making an initial call you have a "default" call to go to in case nobody has better information (c) it's a similar principle to replay in the NFL, for instance: you need additional info to overrule the initial "call on the field."
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 13, 2008, 12:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron
Just to speak to this narrow question: the rationale might be that (a) it's BU's call and he should make it, (b) by making an initial call you have a "default" call to go to in case nobody has better information (c) it's a similar principle to replay in the NFL, for instance: you need additional info to overrule the initial "call on the field."
Hey all,

One thing to remember is that you, as a BU, are not asking the PU to make the call for you. You are just requesting more information before you make your call. If I ask for help, I already considered the runner was out, and the call will remain that way unless the PU gives me information that will change MY call, i.e., yes, he did pull his foot.

LomUmp
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 14, 2008, 10:11am
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Indeed, Lom.

mbyron, I probably should have elaborated a bit to explain that I am not against getting help after making a call in all situations; i.e., I do believe there may be times it's necessary. I was referring here specifically to the situation where BU is in the middle of the field and somehow screened and needs to ask his PU for assistance.

I also am not mandating that everyone should follow my lead. I'm not arrogant enough to recommend this. It's just a suggestion, and one that I believe has made my job much easier. I politely and respectfully ask the NCAA, though: If we as umpires can "get the call right" as is recommended to us, what better way to do it than to have some quick and definitive assistance BEFORE such a call rather than to have the post-call meeting and reversal? If we can "get the call right" AND look good, isn't this more preferable than just getting it right and looking like crap while doing so?

Again, I am not against consulting a partner(s) for help after a call or play occurs. I just think it happens more often than it should, and that if we do things a bit differently in some situations, we'd be able to avoid this.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 14, 2008, 11:07am
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by UMP25
Bob,

We had this same "debate" during our NCAA meetings in Cleveland this year. I vehemently disagreed that the base ump should make a call, then call time, then consult, then change the call. How could anyone alive possibly believe this is better than immediately going to your partner for help BEFORE making a call and getting one, fluid call?
Was the question of multiple runners brought up?

R1/R2 2 outs 3-2 count

That means runners off with the pitch. You are in "C" B1 hits ball in the hole between 1st and second. F4 makes a nice play but his throw causes F3 to stretch.

You in "C" make the out call. R1 is almost to third base and R2 is about to score. If B1 would have ruled safe, R2 would have easily scored and R1 easiley to third base. Upon hearing the OUT call, the runners head back to their respective dugouts and get ready for the next inning.

Now the OM comes out and asks you to check with your partner and as outlined above, the following takes place.

You check with the PU and the PU says that F3's foot was CLEARLY off the bag but since it was not his call initilaly said nothing (and rightly so) until asked.

Now the call is changed. What do you do with the R1/R2?

Another twist R2 was a slow runner, and would have been a dead-duck at the plate had the BU ruled safe but because it was out number 3. F3 simply headed back to his dug-out.

That's why I agree the proper mechanic should be

If you as BU are unsure ask your partner immediately so that the flow of the game is not interrupted.

It's very difficult to change calls "after the fact" when we have multiple runners.

If we go by MLB it appears that whenever a call effecting multiple runners is indeeed changed, then the ball is retro-actively dead at the point of the mis-application or blown call.

Pete Booth
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 14, 2008, 11:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UMP25
mbyron, I probably should have elaborated a bit to explain that I am not against getting help after making a call in all situations; i.e., I do believe there may be times it's necessary. I was referring here specifically to the situation where BU is in the middle of the field and somehow screened and needs to ask his PU for assistance.
I understood your point. I agree that the situation where (a) BU is in the infield and (b) F3 might have pulled his foot, are so common that it merits its own mechanic. This mechanic is independent of the general principle of getting help when a coach saw something dramatically different.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 14, 2008, 12:05pm
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As was the case in yesterday's Cubs at Phillies game when DeRosa hit a foul home run, where even after the entire crew consulted, they still blew the home run call by letting the 4-bagger stand. Yikes!
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 14, 2008, 12:46pm
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did you think it was foul?

I didn't think the replay was 100% conclusive.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 14, 2008, 01:55pm
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Just because 4 people consult, they may not all have "call changing" information.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 14, 2008, 05:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UMP25
As was the case in yesterday's Cubs at Phillies game when DeRosa hit a foul home run, where even after the entire crew consulted, they still blew the home run call by letting the 4-bagger stand. Yikes!
What's a "foul home run"?
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 14, 2008, 07:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron
What's a "foul home run"?
One that goes against YOUR team.

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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 14, 2008, 07:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UMP25
As was the case in yesterday's Cubs at Phillies game when DeRosa hit a foul home run, where even after the entire crew consulted, they still blew the home run call by letting the 4-bagger stand. Yikes!
Hey UMP25, I saw the game also. It took 6 IR's before any of us were sure that the ball was in fact foul. The only ones that really knew were the fans sitting right there. In all fairness, the original shot from the camera behind home late is pretty much what the 3rd base umpire had and it looked fair for 3 IR's. Only when the focused the shot on the foul pole did we see that it was a foul ball and that was the 6th IR! We only get a split second and sometimes we are wrong!

I seriously think that there is too much to focus on in MLB parks when looking at the foul poles.
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