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Batter's hands
Are batters allowed to extend any part of the fore arms and/or hands across the plane of the plate while the pitch is in motion? ruling?
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You have nothing to rule on here unless the batter is hit by the pitch while doing this.
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You'll see this frequently as kids swing at outside pitches or with guys who crowd the plate. Like Cub42 said you have nothing until he's hit. In which case its "Time, the pitch is a strike, the batter stays here." If he's swinging or was hit in the zone while not swinging. These always cause interesting situations after you make that call. Including the infamous "the hands are part of the bat arguement"
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They are passed from father to son. I've been hearing the "hands are part of the bat" argument for 20 years now. That's one full generation.
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Now, if the batter is doing something just to induce a balk, then we might have something. |
A good general guideline is that if the rules do not specifically prohibit something, it is probably not illegal.
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Well I got news for you!! I had a batter extending hands so far over the plate, that the pitcher complained he couldn't see F2's target. Well, I agreed and had the batter back off the hands. In this case, The B1 was deliberately trying to distract the pitcher. Thats was my ruling and I'm sticking to it. LOL.
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Where in the heck was the catcher's target for the batter to be obstructing the pitcher's view of it?
I'd leave this alone. What level of baseball was this? |
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It is one thing to ask a question as a rookie, it is entirely rude to ignore the right answer an tell us "your doing it your way." I'm with you OZ!!!! |
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Are you saying you've never asked for rules help on this board? If you have then your response may be a bit hypocritical. RNG could have looked for hours regarding his question and never found anything, obviously since there was nothing to find and then came to the board for help from the old timers. If, as you say, he's taking the "easy way out" it's only because you are making the assumption that he didn't search the book prior to asking. |
Thank you Co !!!!!
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Then why ask for help? |
I think what he meant by that was....
That was his STORY and he is sticking to it.
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But I felt that was a different issue |
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That said, the original poster's question seemed more like something that was dreamed up after tipping a few in the local bar. And from the looks of some of the posts, I am not the only one with that opinion! Now to your comments:
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Yeah, this Smitty really got my dander up, people! But you know what? Pi$$ on him! He's not worth our time! |
ozzy,
No need to "sugar coat it" like that, just tell us what you think! ;) JM |
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So you invented a rule? Not a recommended practice. Exactly what level is this that a batter can hold the bat in such a manner that his arms blodk F2's vision all while staying in the batter's box? |
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BTW, the batter does not have the right to see the pitcher's eyes either, should that come up in one of your games. :cool: JM |
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Well I AM from Chicago!
(How embarrassing. :o ) JM |
Damn, there are some bipolar son of a bass fishermen on here.........:(
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Steven,
Happy (belated) 60th! :D JM |
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canadaump6,
You're "backsliding". Quote:
JM |
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I take it Oakley's would be too expensive then...I think we need an official Fed ruling first though. Did I really see "travesty of the game" used in relation to a batter's box? :) |
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First, just what rule set are you playing by that would allow you to tell a batter where he can place his hands? The pitcher can't see F2's target? Call the waaaaaaaaambulance. Throw the ball at the batter's hands, then. Second, Ozzy merely questioned where the "crazy questions" (well, it was) come from and did not insult you, and in fact he went out of his way to clarify that he wasn't trying to insult anyone. Third, rookies should never tell veterans when to retire. It just ain't right. |
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I believe it was post number 18 in this thread that rngrack claimed to be out of line. rngrck mentioned that he had the batter move his hands a reasonable distance from the strike zone because the pitcher couldn't see the catcher's signs. Rule 4.06(a) (3): No manager, player, subsitute, coach trainer or batboy shall...call "time" or employ any other word or phrase or commit any act while the ball is alive and in play for the obvious purpose of trying to make the pitcher commit a balk. If there were no runners on base or I didn't sense any intent on the part of the batter to make the pitcher balk, I would also consider warning the batter to be careful, cause he could end up wearing a fastball on the knuckles. |
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Yeh
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Sometimes we (you) need more training and/or experience in order to ask more intelligent questions. Sorry Oz... I know you didn't need a prop up but jeeze! Someone's gotta pick up the slack here now....:D /ignore +2.......... |
Steve, Bobby and Rcichon it's great to see you guys on again! We all seem to agree that it is not the umpire's job to "coach". We also agree that umpires need to officiate by the rules that are already in the books and not "invent" rules on the spot. Let's move on to the next inning and let these "problems" lay where they are. Steve, you take 1st. Bobby, you have 2nd and go out on everything you can, we'll cover you. Rcichon, you have the anchor at 3rd and I have the plate. Let's play two, guys! ;)
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While Ozzy's post #18 may have been over the top, it was in direct response to rngrck's post admonishing Ozzy -- after Ozzy's reasonable post wondering from where these questions come. Not to pick on you (I'm serious about that), but even your post here ( "I suggest you read...") could be considered by some to be inflamatory (and, I'm not saying SDS would take it that way). It's just an example of how what's said and what's read are often different. Better, perhaps, would be "I don't think Ozzy's post #18 was reasonable." "I" words instead of "you" words -- see the difference? . Quote:
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Great advice for newer posters as well as officials, Bob: state your own opinion, report your own experiences, explain your own view. Keeps you out of trouble on the forums.
That's my experience, anyway. ;) |
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Post edited as per Bob's suggestion.
I will admit that nowhere in the rules does it state that the umpire is responsible for making sure the batter stays off the plate. However, at younger and less competetive levels of ball, it might be a wise idea for umpires to make sure the batter is not putting himself at risk of being seriously injured (some kids can throw pretty fast from 40 or 50 feet). My guess would be that at higher age levels, crowding the plate is self-policed and if the batter doesn't know enough to back off the plate, the catcher may tell him to do so. Even in more competetive leagues, should an umpire not at least tell the batter that he risks getting hurt? I remember a batter at high school level who would stand about 2 feet outside the batter's box while a pitcher was taking his warmups. I caught him doing it before anything happened, but I can just imagine the pitcher getting a free HBP without having to give the batter first base. On a related note, I have worked with umpires who will call time and instruct a batter regarding feet placement in the batter's box. One partner even went as far as to take the bat, and use its distance to measure off the back and front lines of the box. Again, this was at younger levels of ball (12 yrs). I still thought it was a bit much to be holding up the game to draw lines on the field. |
1) As long as the batter is in the box, I wouldn't tell him where or how to stand.
2) There's a rule requiring the batter to be in the box, so marking the box (esp. at the lower levels) is sometimes required. 3) I have told batters to back off the plate when the feet are too close to the plate -- but never the hands 4) There is a specific rule (at least in FED and NCAA) that the on-deck batter needs to be in the proper spot, not near the plate. So, you were right to move him back. That, though, cannot be extended to the OP |
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You made a ruling on the field, stuck to it so why bother asking a question. IMO, that's one of the BIG reasons why posters say that there is a "tone" addressed to some of the OP's. If you ask a question Read the responses. Take those that offer you value and discard the rest. However, if you have already made up your mind then what's the point other then to generate "excitement" over nothing. In the scheme of things what player in their "right mind" is going to lean his exposed elbows/ arms over home plate so that F1 can throw a BBBE that hits him for a strike. Pete Booth |
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I think OP is all about that 12-yr.-old hot shot that thinks/knows he'll mess up the pitcher, just like some may waggle a fake bunt.:) |
As a veteran umpire in my association says,
"That waving fake bunt thing will open up my strike zone by an acre or two." |
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Also, in my experience the people who say stuff like this are only half joking. |
10-4 on the internet thing. Perhaps some smileys would have lightened the mood of the post.
For the record: do not open up the strike zone by an acre or two. Just make a mental note that waving a bat in the strike zone doesn't belong in a baseball game, but nothing you can do to stop him from doing it. Kind of like my favorite New York Ranger screening the goaltender by facing him and waving his stick in his face... but that is a discussion for the hockey board :) |
I would not change the strikezone, but I would secretly wish in my heart that the pitcher would nail the batter on the forearm with a fastball.
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Yes, and in the strike zone, too, so we get a dead ball strike and runners return.
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What baseball purpose does a deceptive pickoff move accomplish? What baseball purpose does the hidden ball trick accomplish? What baseball purpose does the skunk play accomplish? What baseball purpose does a fielder asking a runner to step off the base so he can clean it accomplish? What baseball purpose does showing bunt then hitting away accomplish? What baseball purpose does the Miami play accomplish? Trying to gain an edge. Legal. Live with it. |
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The defense has a way of handling it if it bothers them. |
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:D The catcher can set up for an outside curve ball and the pitcher can throw a high fast ball. Do you think it's OK for an umpire to impose his personal point of view on the game? If so, why? Varitek swings his bat while the catcher is giving signs. Thome points his. Manny does a Statue of Liberty imitation. NO ONE CARES! Why should you? I coach. I have to see it from both the offensive and defensive perspective. It's not a one-sided view. |
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In HS, I might say "Knock it off." Above that, let 'em posture all they want. And you'll break my stones here, RI, but I believe there are times when an umpire MUST impose his personal point of view into the goings-on. Harrumph. Ace |
There are absolutely times when your personality and point of view will be imposed.
Last weekend I DQ'd a kid for striking out swinging and throwing his bat as hard as he could into the ground, along with the helmet. I viewed it as a safety concern, and removed him from the game. That was my personal point of view of the happenings. I choose not to mess around when it comes to actions like this because that is one part of my job I take VERY seriously; safety. Others may have warned him, others may have walked the other way because it wasn't directed at the umpire. Personal choice I guess. |
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Ozzy, what you would expect him to do...
I tried to keep him in, but it just wouldn't stop. At first, the coach yelled at his kid, when informed of the ejection, he wouldn't stop saying "how about a warning, you've got to be kidding". He approached me and I told him it was a safety concern in my judgment. He kept trying to reason and get the kid "unejected." Finally I just heard enough of this subdued talk, probably even entertained him too much (between 45 seconds and a minute), and told the coach, "Coach, the player is disqualified. In my judgment he endangered the safety of all participants. Now lets get back to baseball." I gave him so much time because it was the 2nd game I had with him and had no previous problems. Tried to give him the benefit of the doubt I guess. I turned and walked away... with an open ear. I heard a loud "BULL****", and turned back around. Coach had turned back to his dugout and his hat was off about 10 feet away. No doubt the words came from him. Well heck, I tried to keep him in the game... :eek: Of course TD didn't back either of the ejections up with a game suspension... pretty typical but there's nothing I can do about it and no other games that I can do with my school schedule. Partner (25 years exp) said I had no choice in either of them... and the TD was full of ****. He doesn't do USSSA much for this reason, only when his HS schedule tapers off. Next day I get to the field, same TD, and he tells me, "try not to eject anyone today." :eek: My reply: "I don't eject people, they eject themselves." :D Freaking TDs... a real struggle around here. |
Did I mention the ejection of the kid who threw the bat as hard as he could into the ground (I mean wound up and SLAMMED, like he was spiking it) was accompanied by a very loud "F***"?
Just want to get all the facts across before judgment is passed :) |
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11.04 Throwing of equipment will be an automatic ejection. You don't need to explain yourself (safety concerns). It's a rule. 12.01 If a coach is ejected from a game, he must sit out the remainder of the game. Additional penalties may be assessed as deemed by the League/Tournament Director. So remainder of the game sitout is all that is required by rule. 12.02 A player ejected must sit out the remainder of the game. So remainder of the game sitout is all that is required by rule. Don't fret about TD's. The teams at the tournament paid to be there and his only concern is that they pay to come back some day. It's not in his best interest to assess additional penalties. A good one would have a discussion with offenders though. I suggest giving TD's the same attention you give assistant coaches. |
I had a minor bat throwing incident in FED game last week. Before I could say a word, here comes coach from the 3B box, asking for time as he goes by me (behind the plate), to yell at his player. I thanked him for taking care of it.
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Grown-ups are bad
I was reffing a semi-formal HS-hoops summer league once (yes, there is an analogy to the dimwitted TD here) here, and one team was just a bunch of whiney-a$$ moaners. No coaches, but there were adults on clock and book.
After a while, during a dead ball period, a I addressed the entire team with a brief "look, knock off the crying and just play" philippic. The guy on the book (who would be paying me) then chastised me for "yelling at the kids." I said nothing to him. My pard, by the way, was useless. So, I decided to simply ignore the whiners, turning my back on protesting players. This simply increased the amount of babysh!t. Toward the end of the game, the same simpleton on the book told me that "you're losing control of the game." After the game in the locker room with no one else around, he continued with this as he gave me my check. I said, "Look, do you want the game officiated properly, or do you you want to let these kids run loose?" All I got back was a bunch of stammering. I knew I was one of the better refs in the circuit, simply because they were hiring a lot of newbies and lifetime jayvee guys. So I ended with, "And if you want to jump into my blankety-blank game again and act like a pantywaist motherfletcher, I'm gone." Never heard another peep from the guy. Ace in CT |
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Good-bye!! The first base coach came sprinting down the line screaming, "what did he do? What did he do? You can't toss him." I was about to toss the assistant coach...when the third base coach/manager got down the line. I was bracing for an argument with the manager when he looked at his first base coach and said, "he spiked his helmet on home plate and stuck it up his (my) a$$." The manager then promptly went into the dugout and chewed out his player stating that, "this organization doesn't tolerate that type of bush league stuff." The first base coach came out the next half inning and stopped and told me, "sorry blue, I didn't see the spiked helmet." It was hilarious. I was bracing for an argument with two base coaches, and rather watched the manager tell his assistant coach to cool down and then chewed out his player in the dugout before he hit the showers. By the way, I was in no hurry to insist that the ejected player leave the dugout. :D |
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My reply: Ask the coaches to maintain behavior that won't allow them to eject themselves. |
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Bob |
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