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rngrck Tue Mar 04, 2008 03:33pm

Going Solo
 
Working my first game solo tomm(JV). Any words of advice would much be appreciated. How about some short cuts if possible?

bob jenkins Tue Mar 04, 2008 03:36pm

Draw a line parallel to the third base line through the lead runner. Don't cross that line (unless it's R3 who will score without a play and you are moving out for other calls.)

JJ Tue Mar 04, 2008 03:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rngrck
How about some short cuts if possible?

Call strikes. Lots of strikes. Don't call balls. Ever. Tell 'em, "If it bounces less than twice it's got a chance."

JJ

BretMan Tue Mar 04, 2008 04:54pm

Find a copy of the ASA softball umpire manual, then study their one-man mechanics. Okay, might not be practical advice if you need it by tomorrow! But those are the mechanics and coverages I default to on the rare occasions I'm stuck doing a baseball game solo.

johnnyg08 Tue Mar 04, 2008 05:20pm

one man sucks...i do about 20 one man games per year...when it's not hot out...and since you're doing JV, it won't be too bad...yes, I realize I just contradicted myself, but JV baseball is pretty low maintenance...call lots of strikes, get 'em swinging the bat early, try and hustle when you can to make the calls and don't over commit.

bossman72 Tue Mar 04, 2008 06:27pm

You can't do much but HUSTLE.

If the coaches see you're hustling to make your calls and not just hovering your fat a$$ around the plate, they can't complain. Just do your best

Tim C Tue Mar 04, 2008 06:55pm

Ok,
 
Here's my advice:

ALWAYS ask for help from your partner on checked/unchecked swing requests.

Regards,

Steven Tyler Tue Mar 04, 2008 07:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim C
Here's my advice:

ALWAYS ask for help from your partner on checked/unchecked swing requests.

Regards,

You should ALWAYS ask for help from your partner in a day game. NEVER ever ask in a night game.

Regards,

ozzy6900 Tue Mar 04, 2008 07:41pm

Here's my input:
  1. Don't work alone.
  2. If they can afford you, they can afford your partner!
  3. A fee and a half is not worth the aggravation (at least not at my age, any longer).
  4. If you have to ask, you are not ready to work alone.
Hope this gets the point across.... good luck.

GarthB Tue Mar 04, 2008 09:17pm

heh heh
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim C
Here's my advice:

ALWAYS ask for help from your partner on checked/unchecked swing requests.

Regards,


Years back, I was assigned to work a JV game. My partner did not show. One of the head coaches was known for his constant whining.

Around the fifth inning, I called a check swing: "No, he didn't go." This buffon yelled, "You gotta get some help on that!"

I looked around the field and then back at him. He yelled again, "C'mon, you gotta get some help!"

So, since there was a runner on second at the time, I pointed to left side of the mound and yelled, "Did he go?" I then jogged out to the "C" position, turned around gave the safe sign and yelled back, "No, he didn't go."

I jogged back to the plate, staring at the doofus coach all the way. About half way back, I saw that he finally showed some sign of recognition of reality, put his head down, and slinked back under his rock.

johnnyg08 Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:04pm

Nice Garth...in response to the above post about not working solo...that's great if you can be as busy as you want to be by only working 2 man+...in my area of MN...we have to take some weekend adult league solo to keep as busy as we want to be...most of the veteran players get the fact that you're working alone which makes the steal of 2nd base or any tag play at 2B w/ more than one guy on base...probably the toughest call on those days...it sometimes is tough to not have your partner either, but I've learned to sell my calls when working alone and it's helped me with my 2 and 3 man games, and I get lots of opportunities to work on my plate as well

soundedlikeastrike Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:25am

Call em as "you" see em. You will get em all right. You'll wanna feel frusrated on those PO's and steals, don't, just remember it's not "your fault".

F1 stealing, B squared to bunt, ball in the dirt, B offers and misses; don't expect to have the best view of the tag at 2nd. I mean how far ya gonna get from the plate, 8'-10' tops.

Snap throws to 3B from F2 or PO from F1 on a returning R3 can be a bear too, again, not your fault. They want that play covered, they'll pay the cover charge.

Keep your priorities straight, F1, balk, no balk, ball, strike, go, no go, fair, foul, catch no catch, the 1st play, running lane, pulled foot, swipe tag, interference, obstruction; slap a safe or out in there, sheesh, before ya know it, there's a 1/2 inning down.

Nobody likes one man, Except those writing the checks.
It's not that bad.
Kinda nice, never any overturned check swings, no inadvertant time outs by your partner, no huddles to discuss, ya never have to worry about your partner hanging out to dry, just gotta look for that silver lining..

johnnyg08 Wed Mar 05, 2008 09:52am

very nice points...good post! appreciated

semperfiguy Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:31am

I know i too am forced to work 1 man games and they are tough. more often thatn not the assigner wanted 2 but could not fill the game. if the coach finds this out it can be tough from the start. Around the northeast they try to put 2 at every game. i knew on only one league (babe ruth) that would not pay. It lasted about a week when coaches backed up the officials. Best of luck. lots of gatorade and hustle. balls and strikes baby!!!!

PeteBooth Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:34am

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by rngrck
Working my first game solo tomm(JV). Any words of advice would much be appreciated. How about some short cuts if possible?


Have in my mind what I call "givens" to be consistent.

Example: you have R1 stealing on the pitch. Since your first priority is to call the pitch, you are not going to get the best of angles on the play. You get a couple of steps to get the best view possible.

If the ball BEATS the runner and the tag is where it is supposed to be = OUT PERIOD. Same holds true for BOTH teams. Conversely if the ball is off line or the fielder has to reach back for a tag etc. the Call is SAFE.

When working SOLO the runners will have the advantage but again the advantage is equal for BOTH teams. On a pick-off attempt at first base you have to be ABSOLUTELY sure you saw a tag to call R1 out therefore, for the most part you will not see too many outs on pick-off plays.

Forget about watching EVERY runner touch the bases. It's virtaully impossible to do when working solo because if the ball is hit in the air, you are watching for the catch / no catch.

You might get a glimpse of the runner touching third base but again I would not worry about appeal plays.

Do not be INFLUENCED on changing calls even if you "kicked it" Example: you have a play at the plate see F2 tag the runner but do not SEE the ball lying on the ground.

You know the offense is going to "go nuts" but you do not have a partner to check with. If you start REVERSING calls based upon reactions of the other team get ready for a very long day.

As Bob says you get into what is known as the "working area" which is around the pitcher's mound. From there you can move in either direction to make the call.

Hustle as best you can

That is all anyone can ask. Most of the time the coaches understand but as in Garth's post every now and then you get a pain in the you know what and if that happens mirror Garth or something along those lines.

NOTE: In HS at least in my area it's not uncommon for umpires to be scheduled SOLO when working modified and even JV games so get used to it.

It works like this

1. Varsity - 2 umpires ALWAYS.
2. JV - The scheduler does try and put 2 umpires on the game but you can work SOLO
3. Modified - Most of the games umpired at this level are SOLO. In fact SOLO for the modified level is becoming the norm at least in the association I work. There is simply not enough umpires to cover all the games at each division.

Pete Booth

johnnyg08 Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteBooth
There is simply not enough umpires to cover all the games at each division.

that's our situation in the area where I assign...we'd love to lobby for two umps, but we don't have the capacity...

rngrck Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:48am

Well got called to work JV solo yesterday. It went well,low scoring game, only missed a pick off at 2nd due to F2 blocking my vision. Coach's very understanding at pre-game and were ok with me.
Gotta remember Garth's comment about the check swing. Classic!!! lol

gordon30307 Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozzy6900
Here's my input:
  1. Don't work alone.
  2. If they can afford you, they can afford your partner!
  3. A fee and a half is not worth the aggravation (at least not at my age, any longer).
  4. If you have to ask, you are not ready to work alone.
Hope this gets the point across.... good luck.

In many areas of the country there are not enough umpires to have 2 man crews for JV, Soph and Freshman (High School) just a fact of life. This particularly true in the Chicago Metro Area.

GarthB Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rngrck
Well got called to work JV solo yesterday. It went well,low scoring game, only missed a pick off at 2nd due to F2 blocking my vision. Coach's very understanding at pre-game and were ok with me.
Gotta remember Garth's comment about the check swing. Classic!!! lol

Send me a PM with your email. We have a sheet a one=person mechanics that we use in training for first and second year umpires. I'll send you a copy. All frosh games here are one-man.

PeteBooth Wed Mar 05, 2008 01:25pm

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarthB
Years back, I was assigned to work a JV game. My partner did not show. One of the head coaches was known for his constant whining.

Around the fifth inning, I called a check swing: "No, he didn't go." This buffon yelled, "You gotta get some help on that!"

I looked around the field and then back at him. He yelled again, "C'mon, you gotta get some help!"

So, since there was a runner on second at the time, I pointed to left side of the mound and yelled, "Did he go?" I then jogged out to the "C" position, turned around gave the safe sign and yelled back, "No, he didn't go."

I jogged back to the plate, staring at the doofus coach all the way. About half way back, I saw that he finally showed some sign of recognition of reality, put his head down, and slinked back under his rock.



Hi Garth:

Nice one.

I had a different incident when working SOLO.

When working SOLO we give the best game possible.

During a check swing in which I called a ball NO he didn't offer, the Manager asked me to check with my partner. Instinctively I pointed to the first base coach before Reality sunk in.

Now after I pointed to the coach and got back to reality I said to myself "Pete what in the he** are you doing"

However, to my surprise the base coach gave me a strike signal on his own player. I said "hey if this kids own coach thought he offered who am I to argue" and I changed the call from ball to strike.

You should have seen the look the manager gave to his base coach. I had to call TIME for a minute because I started laughing.

Pete Booth

johnnyg08 Wed Mar 05, 2008 02:28pm

Just for fun, I've appealed to the 1B coach before...I never changed my call but more so doing it to show the teams that "hey, it's just me out there..."

HokieUmp Wed Mar 05, 2008 02:31pm

we must have it good....
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gordon30307
In many areas of the country there are not enough umpires to have 2 man crews for JV, Soph and Freshman (High School) just a fact of life. This particularly true in the Chicago Metro Area.

In our area (Southern Hampton Roads), we have enough umpires for 2-man crews for all scholastic games - varsity, JV, middle school. And for all the other leagues our association does, too. In fact, we have such good numbers, we need more business to get everybody games. We do have some 1-umpire games, actually, but they're the real little dudes in the Pony system.

If you pay the travel fees, gordon30307, maybe can import some people your way.... :p

johnnyg08 Wed Mar 05, 2008 02:36pm

you do have it good

CO ump Wed Mar 05, 2008 04:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteBooth
Do not be INFLUENCED on changing calls even if you "kicked it" Example: you have a play at the plate see F2 tag the runner but do not SEE the ball lying on the ground.

You know the offense is going to "go nuts" but you do not have a partner to check with. If you start REVERSING calls based upon reactions of the other team get ready for a very long day.

Pete Booth

Pete
I get your larger point about a new ump working solo needing to be tough and hold up under the pressure of the coaches.
But
as advice to new umpires goes the above example is terrible.
If he doesn't "SEE the ball lying on the ground" then he didn't SEE the ball in F2s glove. One of the first things all new umpires need to learn is If you don't see the ball don't make a call!

Steven Tyler Wed Mar 05, 2008 05:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarthB
Years back, I was assigned to work a JV game. My partner did not show. One of the head coaches was known for his constant whining.

Around the fifth inning, I called a check swing: "No, he didn't go." This buffon yelled, "You gotta get some help on that!"

I looked around the field and then back at him. He yelled again, "C'mon, you gotta get some help!"

So, since there was a runner on second at the time, I pointed to left side of the mound and yelled, "Did he go?" I then jogged out to the "C" position, turned around gave the safe sign and yelled back, "No, he didn't go."

I jogged back to the plate, staring at the doofus coach all the way. About half way back, I saw that he finally showed some sign of recognition of reality, put his head down, and slinked back under his rock.

I hope I never feel the urge as an umpire to act this unprofessional on a ballfield....:rolleyes:

johnnyg08 Wed Mar 05, 2008 05:57pm

all depends on the setting...unless you're joking here...but an ump could have a little fun with this depending on the situation...

GarthB Wed Mar 05, 2008 06:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler
I hope I never feel the urge as an umpire to act this unprofessional on a ballfield....:rolleyes:

That should be "unprofessionally", an adverb.

ozzy6900 Wed Mar 05, 2008 07:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler
I hope I never feel the urge as an umpire to act this unprofessional on a ballfield....:rolleyes:

Oh knock it off, Steve! I think that Garth did a great job of showing a bonehead coach up! Jack-a$$ wanted a check, Jack-a$$ got a check! You need to lighten up and enjoy this $hit! :D

tibear Thu Mar 06, 2008 08:35am

I remember one game I was doing solo with R2 and R3, less then two out.

Batter hits a line shot to F7 that the fielder has to run in and dive for. I'm watching the fielder dive for the ball, make the catch, roll on the ground and then stand up and throw the ball AND at the same time trying to see what R3 is doing with regards to tagging up. As soon as I see F7 still has the ball I check R2, who's about two steps off the bag and running towards third.

End of play had R3 scoring and R2 standing on third. Defensive manager yells to get them to appeal that R2 let early. I call the runner safe. Out comes the manager saying that the runner never went back to tag the base.

I simply explained what my priorities were on the play:
1) Legal catch
2) Tag up of R3
3) Tag up of R2

I admitted that when I checked R2 he was about 2 steps off the bag which was close enough for me. If R2 was half way to third when I checked then he might have an arguement but being the only umpire means that you have to have priorities about what your looking for.

The manager still wasn't happy and insisted that the runner didn't tag up but I simply told him that if he wasn't happy that he should try to persuede more of his players to take up umpiring so we wouldn't be so short year after year.

johnnyg08 Thu Mar 06, 2008 09:23am

close enough for me

be careful with that phrase...that can cause more trouble than simply saying nothing

rngrck Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:38am

While working solo, is it advisable to call time after making calls on the bases while I'm near the mound and going back to my position behind the plate. I found myself doing this alot, didn't want to miss a play with my back turned.

johnnyg08 Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:43am

you're not going to call anything that you can't see anyway...I understand why you'd do this while working one man...it's a bit risky, I know, but where I work, the players pretty much get the fact that when a play is over, it's over and when my back is turned to the field of play, I'm not making any calls either way...so I don't always call "time" but I can see where your plan is probably better than mine...but it seems to work for me...

CO ump Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyg08
you're not going to call anything that you can't see anyway...I understand why you'd do this while working one man...it's a bit risky, I know, but where I work, the players pretty much get the fact that when a play is over, it's over and when my back is turned to the field of play, I'm not making any calls either way...so I don't always call "time" but I can see where your plan is probably better than mine...but it seems to work for me...

By not making a call what do you mean?

Sit. 1

Your near the mound after a bases empty single. F2 has the ball. You turn to return to HP. F2 snaps a throw to F3 because R1 went brain dead and was already off the bag. You hear the roar of the crowd and realize there's something happening. You turn just in time to see the ball roll into DBT. What do you do?

1. If you say award bases, how many? your back was turned, was f2 on the rubber or not?

2. Based on where F2 was when you turned your back you decide to award 2 bases. Now defensive coach comes out and he's pi$$ed. Apparently (at least according to def. coach) R1 deliberately interfered with F2s throw and needs to be called out. Hearing this argument 3rd base coach comes running in saying there was no interference, F3 was blocking the bag without the ball, he obstructed and my guy had no place to go.


I'm not sure what the disadvantage of calling time is when you turn your back, but I know what it can be if you don't.

johnnyg08 Thu Mar 06, 2008 05:06pm

I got nothing...I don't disagree with you...but at my pregame, I tell the mgrs, that there's only one of me out here...whenever possible I try to not turn my back on the field...but in the sitch you describe, I call nothing...my back was turned, there's one ump, the play was over.

You're right there's not a disadvantage...as I said earlier, I should do it more, but it does seem to slow the flow of the game...in my expereince anyway...your way is probably the right way to do it...your points are all excellent

GarthB Thu Mar 06, 2008 05:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyg08
I got nothing...I don't disagree with you...but at my pregame, I tell the mgrs, that there's only one of me out here...whenever possible I try to not turn my back on the field...but in the sitch you describe, I call nothing...my back was turned, there's one ump, the play was over.

You're right there's not a disadvantage...as I said earlier, I should do it more, but it does seem to slow the flow of the game...in my expereince anyway...your way is probably the right way to do it...your points are all excellent

When I worked a few one-man games back in the day, I agreed with you. Calling time does delay a game. Players hear time and wander. Coaches begin communicating with players....people just relax and then take time to get focused and back in position when play is called. The less often time is called the better.


In the extremely rare situation that something happens when your back is turned. Stop it and put it back where it was. No problem. If you are hustling, no one is going to b!tch. If it happens and you're strolling, then they will, and you'll deserve it.

This is what Frosh? JV? And one-man to boot. He!!, keep it going.

CO ump Thu Mar 06, 2008 05:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarthB
When I worked a few one-man games back in the day, I agreed with you. Calling time does delay a game. Players hear time and wander. Coaches begin communicating with players....people just relax and then take time to get focused and back in position when play is called. The less often time is called the better.


In the extremely rare situation that something happens when your back is turned. Stop it and put it back where it was. No problem. If you are hustling, no one is going to b!tch. If it happens and you're strolling, then they will, and you'll deserve it.

This is what Frosh? JV? And one-man to boot. He!!, keep it going.

Garth am I reading this right? You're endorsing turning your back on a live ball.
Are there any other live ball situations that you endorse "do overs"

What if:
R2
sharp grounder to F6 he gloves it pump fakes to first, umpire swivels head to first, split second later realizes no throw was made, turns back to F6 and realizes he's missed a play on R2.
Should umpire stop play and put everyone back "sorry, do over, I missed it"
This case and above situation are both screw ups and umpire misses the play in both cases.
Why is one a do over and the other isn't?

johnnyg08 Thu Mar 06, 2008 08:56pm

it's not a do over...it's understood where I work anyway, that with one man, when the play's over, it's over...watch any baseball game and there's "that down moment" where you walk back to your postion...you get caught turning your back during a play...that's a different story...it's not a do over...like I said before...if you want to call time, call time...there's nothing wrong with it...how much 1 man do you work??

mbyron Fri Mar 07, 2008 08:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CO ump
Garth am I reading this right? You're endorsing turning your back on a live ball.

This ties for the dumbest post on the internet.

Garth says: "If you screw up, here's how to deal with it."

CO Ump says: "So Garth, you're endorsing screwing up?"

Sheesh.

CO ump Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron
This ties for the dumbest post on the internet.

Garth says: "If you screw up, here's how to deal with it."

CO Ump says: "So Garth, you're endorsing screwing up?"

Sheesh.

Mr. Byron,

Comprehension is everything

Garth said:
"In the extremely rare situation that something happens when your back is turned. Stop it and put it back where it was. No problem."

If time is called when you turn your back nothing can happen. Therefore it seems to me he is endorsing turning your back on a live ball.
Also he doesn't say it's rare to turn your back on a live ball, he's saying it's rare that something happens when you do turn your back.

The last line of his post is "He!! keep it going"
In context with the rest of his post one can only deduct that he means don't call time keep the ball live. Again this would be an endorsement of turning your back on a live ball.

If you think the only point of his post was how to deal with a screw up I ask you what screw up would that be?
That screw up would have to be turning your back on a live ball. The balance of his post does not at all indicate that he considers this a screw up, rather an unfortunate result of a conscious decision to keep the game moving by not calling time.

Hence my question:
Garth are you really endorsing turning your back on a live ball?

johnnyg08 Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:22pm

What difference does it make to you?...pretty sure in a one man game...do what you wish...you want to call time, call time, Garth will do his thing...pretty sure he's capable of handling his situations...I'll answer your question for me...on how you're putting it, yes, from time to time I'll turn my back on a live ball when I'm working one-man...take away my birthday

GarthB Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CO ump
Mr. Byron,

Comprehension is everything

Garth said:
"In the extremely rare situation that something happens when your back is turned. Stop it and put it back where it was. No problem."

If time is called when you turn your back nothing can happen. Therefore it seems to me he is endorsing turning your back on a live ball.
Also he doesn't say it's rare to turn your back on a live ball, he's saying it's rare that something happens when you do turn your back.

The last line of his post is "He!! keep it going"
In context with the rest of his post one can only deduct that he means don't call time keep the ball live. Again this would be an endorsement of turning your back on a live ball.

If you think the only point of his post was how to deal with a screw up I ask you what screw up would that be?
That screw up would have to be turning your back on a live ball. The balance of his post does not at all indicate that he considers this a screw up, rather an unfortunate result of a conscious decision to keep the game moving by not calling time.

Hence my question:
Garth are you really endorsing turning your back on a live ball?

No, what I'm saying is that in the few one man games that I have done, and the in the one man games for which I train umpires, at the conclusion of play, if the umpire has had to come out make a call, the ball is now dead as he jogs back to the plate, without him calling time.

The reason is what I stated before, to keep the flow going and to discourage additional activites of the coaches and players that would delay putting the ball in play.

And IF, some numb nut decides create a play situation while the umpire is jobbing back to the plate, the umpire would put things back as they were, just as he would if time had been called.

The result is no different than if he had called time after every play, except the game will be ten miuntes shorter.

If you have a problem with working Frosh one man games in this manner, then don't.

CO ump Fri Mar 07, 2008 01:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarthB
No, what I'm saying is that in the few one man games that I have done, and the in the one man games for which I train umpires, at the conclusion of play, if the umpire has had to come out make a call, the ball is now dead as he jogs back to the plate, without him calling time.

The reason is what I stated before, to keep the flow going and to discourage additional activites of the coaches and players that would delay putting the ball in play.

And IF, some numb nut decides create a play situation while the umpire is jobbing back to the plate, the umpire would put things back as they were, just as he would if time had been called.

The result is no different than if he had called time after every play, except the game will be ten miuntes shorter.

If you have a problem with working Frosh one man games in this manner, then don't.

First off this is a forum where mechanics, rules, rule interps and umpire stuff is discussed and hopefully some learning takes place. The next time I or some one else posts an incorrect mechanic or a bad rules interp you will be one of the first to correct it.
I'm sure many new and inexperienced umps are reading your posts, and so they should, you're probably one of the top 5 knowledgeable and experienced guys on the board, which is why I was surprised when you stated that turning your back on a live ball was ok.

I'm very confused over your explanation. The ball is either dead or it's live, there's no middle ground. If the ball is dead it must be put back in play.
If you teach that the ball is automatically dead when you turn your back so be it. But it is an improper mechanic, or lack of mechanic and no one but you knows the ball is dead.

And why in the world would a kid be a numb nut for creating a play during live ball action? I don't remember ever being taught to make sure the ump is watching before advancing, there's nothing in the rules that obligates the player to wait for the umpire during live ball action.
You would be the numb nut for not calling time.
I think you're teaching terrible mechanics and creating a real opportunity for a crap house for what? To maybe save 5 minutes.

Garth you may have the skills and presence on the field to handle the coach when you have to send a runner back or deny an out by the defense that was made while the ball was live and your back was turned. But you teach and have influence over many new and inexperienced umps who have not developed the same game management skills that you have and your endorsement and teaching of this terrible mechanic isn't helping them.

Teaching improper mechanics for the sake of getting off the field quicker isn't something I expected from you

GarthB Fri Mar 07, 2008 01:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CO ump

So, you disagree with the way we perform one-man mechanics when we are forced to do at a sub varsity level? I can live with that.

CO ump Fri Mar 07, 2008 02:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyg08
What difference does it make to you?...pretty sure in a one man game...do what you wish...you want to call time, call time, Garth will do his thing...pretty sure he's capable of handling his situations...I'll answer your question for me...on how you're putting it, yes, from time to time I'll turn my back on a live ball when I'm working one-man...take away my birthday

johnny
If I said I use my left hand to signal strikes, you think you, Garth and few others might have a comment for me?
If I said I point to my partner with my right hand on an appeal and that's the best way to do it, I might get some feedback?
If I said I didn't like the pivot move and instead stayed on the outside because I got better angles, you think I might catch some flak?

So my question is What difference does it make to you?

It's a forum where opinions are shared and crtiques are given with or without permission and many umpires especially newer ones benefit.
Without going into the archives I'll venture to guess that Garth has many times corrected a stated rules interp or corrected a mechanic, not to show up the original poster but to make sure the umps reading the post are not misled.
It's the beauty of this forum that improper mechanics and bad rule interps ususally get vetted.

I'm sorry you're offended but bad mechanics are bad mechanics no matter who's performing or promoting them. If you disagree then say so but if you don't want to be critiqued then don't announce on the board what you're doing.

CO ump Fri Mar 07, 2008 02:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarthB
So, you disagree with the way we perform one-man mechanics when we are forced to do at a sub varsity level? I can live with that.

Most umps doing sub varsity are on their way up the ladder not taking a temporary step down. Therefore, I think we agree, they need to be learning proper mechanics, not shortcuts to getting off the field 5 minutes quicker.

GarthB Fri Mar 07, 2008 02:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CO ump
johnny
If I said I use my left hand to signal strikes, you think you, Garth and few others might have a comment for me?
If I said I point to my partner with my right hand on an appeal and that's the best way to do it, I might get some feedback?
If I said I didn't like the pivot move and instead stayed on the outside because I got better angles, you think I might catch some flak?

So my question is What difference does it make to you?

It's a forum where opinions are shared and crtiques are given with or without permission and many umpires especially newer ones benefit.
Without going into the archives I'll venture to guess that Garth has many times corrected a stated rules interp or corrected a mechanic, not to show up the original poster but to make sure the umps reading the post are not misled.
It's the beauty of this forum that improper mechanics and bad rule interps ususally get vetted.

I'm sorry you're offended but bad mechanics are bad mechanics no matter who's performing or promoting them. If you disagree then say so but if you don't want to be critiqued then don't announce on the board what you're doing.


I will contine to teach our umpires, that when faced with working one-man, instead of cancelling the game, work it to the best of your ability withn the limitation, hustle at the end of plays, without calling time, to get back to the plate so that you can get the game in before dusk. And, if someone tries to create a play situation, kill it and put everything back where it was...where it would be if time HAD been called, so that there is no difference in the outcome of the integrity of the game.

If I've disappointed you, I'm sorry. But I cannot get too excited about someone not agreeing with so-called "one man mechanics" used at a Frosh game.

If you want to compare that to misinterpreting rules that affect the integerity of the game at all levels, or missing a rotation or being out of position for a call you're reaching. Nothing in the way we work one man games results in the game ending any differently than it would using other "one-man" mechanics.

This much ado about nothing.

CO ump Fri Mar 07, 2008 03:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarthB
If I've disappointed you, I'm sorry. But I cannot get too excited about someone not agreeing with so-called "one man mechanics" used at a Frosh game.

I'm not excited nor do I expect you to be, but I do think the freshman deserve as good an effort as any other level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarthB
If you want to compare that to.... being out of position for a call you're reaching.

Actually when you turn your back on a live ball you are out of position

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarthB
Nothing in the way we work one man games results in the game ending any differently than it would using other "one-man" mechanics.

This much ado about nothing.

It's nothing until a crap storm hits because an ump is denying a team an earned advantage because you turned your back on a live ball.

However you can avoid that by covering this in pregame:

"Coaches, I'm out here by myself so when I turn my back to go home the ball is dead, well kinda dead because I'm not going to put it back in play but if anything happens while my back is turned we're gonna play it like it was dead and just because I turn back around doesn't mean I'm ready, I might be wiping sweat off my brow and not yet focused or maybe putting my mask on and not ready to watch a snap throw, so the kids are just going to have to guess as to when play starts again because calling time and pointing the ball back in play is too much effort, you do know I'm out here by myself?
Let me assure you this is for your benefit not mine, you'll thank me when the game's over."


Yep I think if you covered it in pregame you'd be good to go!

GarthB Fri Mar 07, 2008 03:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CO ump
I'm not excited nor do I expect you to be, but I do think the freshman deserve as good an effort as any other level.

Then they should have paid for two umpires.

I'm sorry...when I said this is "much ado about nothing" I misspoke. I should have said "this is very much ado about nothing."

Wow.

PeteBooth Fri Mar 07, 2008 04:05pm

[QUOTE]
Quote:

Originally Posted by CO ump

The ball is either dead or it's live, there's no middle ground. If the ball is dead it must be put back in play.

By definition only you are correct but not in actual practice.

If you watch MLB when b1 walks and the manager wants to make a pitching change, the manger is already on his way to the mound before TIME is called. It's called MLB protocol. There are also other instances as well.

When working SOLO I do my best to back peddle when I am near the "working area" making a call.

Keep the game moving.

Also, IMO you are missing the BIG picture It's a modified / JV or Frosh game. If we go by what you recommend you will be calling TIME on just about every play which adds as Garth said at the very minimum 10-15 minutes and in some instances more.

The coaches know you are working SOLO and if your back is turned while jogging back to the plate it is in effect TIME without calling it.

Also, one other thing to remember. You are not going to jog back to the plate until action is relaxed on the previous play. After action is relaxed, as Garth says if the coach now "wants to play games" when your back is turned, then you simply put things back.

If you want to call TIME so be it but that's your preference, all Garth and myself are pointing out is that there is another way it is not necessarily the wrong way.

When working SOLO TIME will be called enough. Sometimes we ourselves take an extra minute or 2 in between innings if we just got finished with a marathon and need that minute or 2 to catch our breaths and keep up with the liquids.

Pete Booth

CO ump Fri Mar 07, 2008 07:26pm

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]
Quote:


By definition only you are correct but not in actual practice.

If you watch MLB when b1 walks and the manager wants to make a pitching change, the manger is already on his way to the mound before TIME is called. It's called MLB protocol. There are also other instances as well.
yes but in each instance the ball is put back in play


[QUOTE=PeteBooth]
Quote:

Also, IMO you are missing the BIG picture It's a modified / JV or Frosh game. If we go by what you recommend you will be calling TIME on just about every play which adds as Garth said at the very minimum 10-15 minutes and in some instances more.
I disagree. This is only an issue when there is a runner or runners on base. I can take an angle back to the plate and keep my eye on a single runner.
The only instance time needs to be called, if you don't turn your back on a single runner, is when there are multiple runners which is a small percentage of the time.

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]
Quote:

The coaches know you are working SOLO and if your back is turned while jogging back to the plate it is in effect TIME without calling it.
So when we're solo the coaches are our friends and suddenly grow a brain and develop a sense of fairness. If that's the case all games should be solo




[QUOTE=PeteBooth]
Quote:

If you want to call TIME so be it but that's your preference, all Garth and myself are pointing out is that there is another way it is not necessarily the wrong way.
If you want to say that when you turn your back the ball is dead that's fine, but then the ball has to be put back in play.
To leave the ball live, but not allow live ball action is wrong. To make the ball dead and not have a definitive time when the ball becomes live again can only lead to trouble.
And if the only reason you're not calling time is to get to the local watering hole quicker then IMO you're cheating the game.
I also have an issue with umps who don't seem to give their best efforts to underclass games. But that's another issue altogether

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]
Quote:

When working SOLO TIME will be called enough.
Except for the issue at hand, why would time be called anymore than in a 2 or 3 man game?

UmpJM Fri Mar 07, 2008 08:06pm

As a "rookie" last season, I got mostly "lower level" assignments which, in the area I live (Chicago suburbs) are unfortunately primarily one umpire games. So, over 60% of the games I worked last year were "solo".

Now, like Garth, I am loathe to call "Time" unles there is a reason to because it "slows down" and legthens the game.

However, like CO_Ump, I do not believe that there is a "sort of dead" condition for the ball. It's either in play or it's not. If it's in play, the offense's runners may attempt to advance and the defense may attempt to put out a runner.

My practice when working solo after I have come into the field to rule on a play is to wait until the action "relaxes" while continuing to face the ball. When the fielder with the ball starts to throw it to the pitcher, I start to jog back to the plate while "looking over my shoulder" at the ball/player with the ball.

On the handful of occasions where the defense initiated a play while I was returning to the plate area, I simply stopped, pivoted to the action, and ruled on the play.

This seemed to work fine for me.

If I found myself "far away" from the plate when action relaxed (say at the 2B cutout after taking the runner into 2B on a "stretch double") I would call Time when action relaxed then hustle back to the plate and explicitly put the ball back in play when the conditions for doing so were met.

JM

BigGuy Fri Mar 07, 2008 09:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by GarthB
No, what I'm saying is that in the few one man games that I have done, and the in the one man games for which I train umpires, at the conclusion of play, if the umpire has had to come out make a call, the ball is now dead as he jogs back to the plate, without him calling time.

The reason is what I stated before, to keep the flow going and to discourage additional activites of the coaches and players that would delay putting the ball in play.

And IF, some numb nut decides create a play situation while the umpire is jobbing back to the plate, the umpire would put things back as they were, just as he would if time had been called.

The result is no different than if he had called time after every play, except the game will be ten miuntes shorter.

If you have a problem with working Frosh one man games in this manner, then don't.

Ninety percent of the games I've worked in the last two years alone have been solo, by choice. I've never turned my back on a live ball. Either time has been called or I back pedal to home. Does it take more time, certainly; is it a pain in the a$$, you bet. I'd rather take an extra 20 - 30 seconds than to place myself in a vulnerable spot and have to explain to a coach, I didn't see it because I wasn't watching. Sorry, I can't agree with your point of view. If you are getting paid to call a game solo, you owe every player, coach and spectator the same courtesy of being attentive at all times as much as you would if you were doing two, three, or four man.

MrUmpire Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAump
Yes the ball is still live but I don't have to watch the ball after the play has been made.

The runner never ever advances to the next base. I just don't allow TWP to occur when I am not watching.
I call the play safe or out and I turn around and head home.

I think this is what Garth is saying. I agree with you both.

Interested Ump Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAump
Yes the ball is still live but I don't have to watch the ball after the play has been made. Most of the time the fielders throw the ball around the infield after an out has been made or get the ball back into the pitcher. The runner never ever advances to the next base. I just don't allow TWP to occur when I am not watching.

I doubt it will make any difference, congrats on your best efforts, but with Moms coaching...who else throws the ball around the infield with Rs? ;)

Quote:

I call the play safe or out and I turn around and head home. I never once considered backpedaling back to my position. Its just too far and too "dumb-looking" for anyone to back pedal 60 to 100 feet back to the plate. If I saw someone I know doing it, I would probably say, "Don't do that."
Like catching up with a fast break, a few backpedals led by a proper shoulder turn...which can be squared" to see the playing field..

Quote:

No one should teach anyone else to back pedal. Its just bad fundamentals. Period.
I would argue but you have your head firmly in sand...er, concrete..no, made up on tis subject. :D

rngrck Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:26am

Well guys, interesting points of view on this subject I first brought up. I've done 4 solo games this week and all went rather smoothly. I did my homework well in the pre-game advising the coaches of what I'd be looking for and expected their cooperation. It worked!!! As far as calling time, i used my judgement rather then calling it every time after a play. If there was lots of action going on with multiple runners, I called it. Otherwise, I watched the infielders throw to the mound and just let it alone. Overall I must have done ok, since I got alot of positive feedback all week from the coaches, players and fans!!


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