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-   -   85% missed this one (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/41917-85-missed-one.html)

ManInBlue Fri Feb 15, 2008 05:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawump
As one member in our association argued in defense of his "true" answer (and he argued a lot more eloquently than I can write):

He said look at the meat of the question: "a runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been caught by a fielder".

He said that is true.

When told by another association member that the answer is "false" because a runner must touch a base after the ball has been TOUCHED by a fielder, he said, "that's not what the question is asking. A runner does not have to re-touch his base after it is touched, he only has to re-touch if it is caught. Meaning, that if the ball is touched by a fielder and then dropped, the runner is not liable to be put out for failing to re-touch. It is the act of the fielder making a legal catch that imposes upon the runner the requirement to retouch his base.

"Thus, a runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been caught by a fielder is true, because if the fielder does not catch the ball there cannot be a requirement to retouch, period."

However, I also see the other side. The question says "AFTER the batted ball has been caught..." and that IS false if you look at it from the point of view that the runner does not have to wait on the bag until, as JM points out, the fielder completes his catch with a voluntary release.

This is a BS question. As I said, 85% of our association got it wrong. Despite that, our association had the highest average grade of any association in the Palmetto State with an average score of 92 (we have 50+ members)...so, some of our guys know how to take this test (but apparently not this question).

Oh well.
Show him 8-2-4. It's pretty straight forward. The test is not worded lilke the book, making the test statement incorrect.

LDUB is right, he's only debating half of the statement.

Rita C Fri Feb 15, 2008 06:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Tyler
These are not questions. These are true/false statements. If they were questions they would have a question mark at the end of the sentence.

Jesus, Alou...........:rolleyes:
It's called a test question regardless. And it's still a poor way to test true working knowledge.

Rita

fitump56 Fri Feb 15, 2008 09:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rita C
It's called a test question regardless. And it's still a poor way to test true working knowledge.

Rita
Which is ultimately the point. Fed tests don't.

etn_ump Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawump
85% of our membership missed this True/False question on the Fed Test:

If a fair batted ball is caught, a runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been caught by a fielder.

The 85% said "true".

What do you all think?
What if it's a ground ball? You never said it was a fly ball.

SAump Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:19pm
Maybe True or False
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)
SAUmp,

Since part of the requirement for a legal catch is to demonstrate voluntary & intentional release, I would say that it is by definition impossible for the catch and the first touch to occur simultaneously.

JM
Please flip a ball up in the air and catch it and then let me know if the catch doesn't immediately take place up on first touch, second touch or third touch. Gloves are designed to secure posession upon first touch.

"If the fielder has made the catch and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the catch, the ball shall be adjudged to have been caught."

The runner is not obligated to wait that long. He can leave the base as soon as the catch was made. Or should I say, before the fielder can legally demonstrate voluntary & intentional release.

Note: This situation doen't include rare events such as dropping the ball before securing posession, juggling a catch, or tipping the ball from one glove into another.

BigUmp56 Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump

The legal requirement to demonstrate voluntary and intentional release requires another hand to enter the glove to remove the ball shortly after the catch has already been made.

.
Really? I'm not sure where that's written...........


Tim.

SAump Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:40pm
Dependent Clause
 
This situation includes rare events such as dropping the ball before securing posession, juggling a catch, or tipping the ball from one glove into another.

Quote:
A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground.

Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball.
A dependent statement may misrepresent other situations when the independent condition is not present. This valid point is made on behalf of 85% of the umpires who failed to connect "touch" within the proper independent statement. This dependent clause only makes sense when the independent statement is included within such a question. Thus, whoever wrote the BS question misled the majority of the umpires who chose the wrong initial independent condition.

SAump Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:08pm
True
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManInBlue
Originally Posted by ManInBlue
I first thought "true" - but this is essentially the exact verbiage from the rule book with "touched" changed to "caught."

Didn't seem like a trick question to me. Simply testing the knowledge of the rules verbiage.

"If a fair or foul batted ball is caught, other than a foul tip, each base runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been touched by a fielder." - my emphasis - Rule 8-2-4
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManInBlue
Show him 8-2-4. It's pretty straight forward. The test is not worded lilke the book, making the test statement incorrect.

LDUB is right, he's only debating half of the statement.
Written again and again.

Rule 7.08 - Any runner is out when -
(d) failing to retouch the base after a fair or foul fly ball is legally caught before that runner or the base is legally tagged by a fielder. ... This is an appeal play

Mr. Umpire, I appeal to your best judgment, that the answer is actually true, as witnessed by 85% of the umpires.

BigUmp56 Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
Written again and again.

Rule 7.08 - Any runner is out when -
(d) failing to retouch the base after a fair or foul fly ball is legally caught before that runner or the base is legally tagged by a fielder. ... This is an appeal play

Mr. Umpire, I appeal to your best judgment, that the answer is actually true, as witnessed by 85% of the umpires.
Well, since you're going to throw an OBR rule cite into a FED thread (hey, that rhymes!), I'll help you out..........


Official Notes - Case Book - Comments: A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground.

Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball.

A fielder may reach over a fence, railing, rope or other line of demarcation to make a catch. He may jump on top of a railing, or canvas that may be in foul ground. No interference should be allowed when a fielder reaches over a fence, railing, rope or into a stand to catch a ball. He does so at his own risk. If a fielder, attempting a catch at the edge of the dugout, is "held up" and kept from an apparent fall by a player or players of either team and the catch is made, it shall be allowed.



Tim.

BretMan Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by etn_ump
What if it's a ground ball? You never said it was a fly ball.
"Catch" implies that the ball was both batted and airbourne. Read the definition of "catch" (2-9-1).

SAump Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:41am
Touch-Catch vs Leave-Touch?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawump
85% of our membership missed this True/False question on the Fed Test:

If a fair batted ball is caught, a runner shall touch his base after the batted ball has been caught by a fielder.

The 85% said "true".

What do you all think?
Option A: Runner shall re-touch his base after fielder catches the ball. True
Option B: Runner may leave his base the instant fielder first touches the ball. True

OP discusses option A, not option B, answer is true as defined in OBR 7.08D.

bob jenkins Sat Feb 16, 2008 09:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
Written again and again.

Rule 7.08 - Any runner is out when -
(d) failing to retouch the base after a fair or foul fly ball is legally caught before that runner or the base is legally tagged by a fielder. ... This is an appeal play
Where can I find 7.08(d) in the FED rules book?

dash_riprock Sat Feb 16, 2008 09:31am
8.2 PENALTY (ART. 1-5) Page 49 of the rule book.

Tim C Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:10am
~Cripes~
 
"Originally Posted by SAump

The legal requirement to demonstrate voluntary and intentional release requires another hand to enter the glove to remove the ball shortly after the catch has already been made."


There is no such rule or interpretation under any code and in any official document.

This statement is not only inaccurate it is simply made up balderdash.

Regards,

johnnyg08 Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAump
Option A: Runner shall re-touch his base after fielder catches the ball. True
Option B: Runner may leave his base the instant fielder first touches the ball. True

OP discusses option A, not option B, answer is true as defined in OBR 7.08D.
My question to you SAump...have you ever played baseball...I don't care how the glove was designed...the first touch versus "catch" rule is there for a very good reason.

Think about it...if it truly was a "catch" rule, coaches would be coaching thier kids to bobble the ball all the way into the infield to prevent any type of tag-up by the offense...that's why the rule is there...to protect the integrity of the game...and probably a few other reasons


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