Hitting object in fair, then going over fence
 

I'm pretty sure i know the ruling to these, but i'm not totally sure. A few scenarios:


Batter hits a shot that will clearly go over the fence for a home run.

1) The ball hits the scoreboard (which is entirely in fair territory and inside the fence) and (a) goes over the fence or (b) deflects back onto the field

2) The ball hits a tree (which is outside the fence, but a significant portion is dangling in fair territory) and (a) goes over the fence or (b) falls back into fair territory and is caught by F8. Would the ruling differ if the ball just grazed the tree?

3) The ball hits the foul pole (which is entirely INSIDE the fence- not even with it) and (a) goes over the fence in fair territory (b) goes over in foul (c) deflects off and comes back into the field

If there is a difference between OBR and FED, be sure to note it.


Thanks!

I would have addressed all three of these possibilitities at the plate meeting, and it would be settled then. Most likely, home run in all three questions.

bossman,

As umpduck suggests, these are all matters of "ground rules" which should be covered at the pre-game plate conference.

Were it up to me, I would suggest that each of the cases you pose be treated as a Home Run.

JM

Ok, so there is no definitive rule book explanation for these?

In all of these scenarios i've heard different ways of doing it. I just wondered if there was a consistant rule book enforcement of these situations.

3.13 and 9.04a(9)

I agree with all posts so far. These are all ground rule issues and should be taken care of at the plate meeting. Most ball fields that I have worked that have these physical type abnormalities are well known to both the umpires and opposing teams that have the pleasure of playing there.

First of all, having a scoreboard that is both "inside the fence" and "in fair territory" is hard to imagine. What - is it in the middle of centerfield? So, I'm having a little trouble envisioning this. It seems to me that this is such an unorthodox configuration for a ballpark that this would have to be a local ground rules issue. I'm not sure that OBR makes allowances for objects in the middle of the playing field like a windmill, an indian teepee, or a giant clown head. :)

Typically, the way this is handled is like this: It is irrelevant that the trunk of the tree is in fair or foul territory. As soon as the ball strikes any part of the tree, the umpire immediately determines whether the ball is over fair or foul territory. The ball is fair or foul on that basis - regardless of where it hits the ground. If fair, it is common for the ball to be considered LIVE, but I've heard of some ground rules (particularly for trees located very near the fence) where the ball is immediately DEAD and double is awarded.

So, if it hits the tree over foul territory, and lands in fair territory - it's a foul ball.

If it hits the tree over fair territory, and lands in foul territory - it's a fair ball.

Basically treat it the same as a fielder touching ball - with two exceptions:

1) If the ball hits the tree over fair territory and ends up going over the fence - it's a double, not a homerun. (But if the tree is very near the fence, I've heard of ground rules making allowances for this being ruled as a homerun if the umpire determines that, despite hitting the tree, it would've been a homerun anyway.)

2) If the ball hits the tree (whether over fair or foul territory) and is caught by a fielder before hitting the ground, it is not a catch. Although, again, I've heard of interpretations that state that the umpire can rule it a catch if, despite hitting the tree, the trajectory of the ball was virtually unaffected (i.e. just hit a few leaves). But if the ball hits a branch and rattles around like in a pinball machine, allowing the fielder to ultimately catch it ... no.

Again, these are typical ground rules that I have experienced (and read about) regarding those fields that have a tree hanging over it.

The foul pole is inside the fence???

What the hell kind of ballfield is this? I don't think I've ever seen a foul pole inside the fence. At most, I've seen foul poles that are integrated as part of the fence.

I think local ground rules are going to have to be established for such non-standard fields as you're describing. Most sets of rules typically do not make allowances for fields that are configured outside the parameters of how the rules require , or assume, it is to be configured.

I guess the designers of Minute Maid Park (Houston, TX) noticed a loophole in the rules; no requirement for the field to actually be level. So what do they do? They put a friggin' hill in centerfield. In my opinion, this is one of the most idiotic configuration quirks in all of baseball. Why not make it really interesting for the outfielders and put multiple moguls out there as if it is some kind of black diamond ski slope? Why not a few bear traps to really make it interesting? :)

This probably didn't help you much but it was fun thinking about it.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Yankee Stadium had monuments and a flagpole in center field for 50 years.

Play it off the tree? Not in my game.

Do you know what the ground rules were concerning that? What if a ball hit off a flagpole and went over the fence?

I don't think I'd like that either.

But then again, I wouldn't relish the idea of calling a game at a field that is the equivalent of a putt-putt golf course. :)

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

The monuments were in play, not sure about hitting the flagpole and going over, but no one ever did that. It was 461 ft. to the fence (shortened from 490 in 1937). I believe Mick and Bill (Moose) Skowron were the only ones to hit it over that fence. The only guy I ever saw who could hit it as far as Mantle was Strawberry. (OK, let the debate begin).

Stargell did not play there, but I saw a number of his shots that went further than others I saw or heard about.

As a young boy, I saw Boog Powell of the Orioles rattle one off the monuments. Looked like a pinball machine. Bobby Mercer labored mightily to retrieve the ball, while Boog made his ponderous course around the bases. Powell finally lumbered into third base, and stood hands on knees, gasping for breath. Would have surely been an inside-the-park home run for any other player in attendance. He, the third baseman (lost to memory), the third base coach and most in attendance all had a good laugh at his "speed."

3B was probably Jerry Kenney (Murcer didn't play CF 'til 1969). Those Kenney, Stick Michael, Horace Clarke years do not evoke fond memories for me.

Dave Emerling,

Thanks for the response... and no, these aren't TWP field configurations i just cooked up. ALL of these conditions exist on fields that i have umpired on before (and still do) and are VARSITY fields.

The scoreboard is in center field in FRONT of the fence right up against it.

The foul poles are located in FRONT of the fence and about an inch away from it.

The trees do dangle over the outfield fence.

I've heard multiple ground rules for all of these situations, which is why i wanted to know if there was a rulebook definition for what should happen in these situations; b/c i have heard coaches give home runs for hitting the scoreboard/foul pole and i've heard giving them doubles if the ball went over the fence, etc. Although these are rag-tag fields, varsity teams do play on them, so i just want to be sure the ground rules they give are within the rules.

YOU determine the grounds rules, not the coaches. Instead of "Coach - take us around please" at the plate meeting, you take them around. It sets the proper tone for the game. And if you're unfamiliar with the field, get there early and walk it.

Points 1 and 2 are pregame ground rule issues.

Point 3 Never seen it and I never will. Sounds like your classic TWP!!!!!!!!!

You are so very wrong it's pathetic.

Home team determines ground rules. Ground rules cannot supercede the rule book. In this case you can determine the ground rule. In the event that the visiting team objects to a "ground rule" (other than one that supercedes the rule book) you can either go with the home teams interpretation or modify it.

FED "almost" answers these questions on 2002 Interps 6 and 7. IN general, a batted ball that hits an object inside the fence "remains in play" and (by rule -- often ignored, I agree) cannot be a home run just because it "hits above a yellow line".

Scoreboard: If the ball continues across the fence without hitting a fielder, then I'd have a home run. If it stays inside the fence, then it's in play. IOW, I'd define the scoreboard as being the "fence" for that portion of the field.

Foul Pole: By tradition, a ball hitting the top part of the pole is OOP. I'd define the "fence" to include the lower part of the pole -- anything hitting the upper part would be a HR.

Tree: Keep the ball in play. Cannot be caught for an out. HR if goes over the fence.

Is it pathetic to arrive early and walk an unfamiliar field to prevent the umpire's worst enemy from rearing its ugly head?

Is it pathetic to take charge of the pre-game meeting to demonstrate, in a non overly-officious way, that you are in charge of the game and that you take your responsibilities seriously?

Of course ground rules cannot supersede a rule - I never implied otherwise.

The great majority of ground rules come right out of the rules book or common sense, requiring no clarification from the home coach. If there is an unusual condition not covered by the rules, of course I will ask the home coach how it has been dealt with in the past and the visiting coach if he agrees. And if there is a dispute, the UIC resolves it.

I don't recall if it was a college or pro clinic where this practice was taught, but it made sense to everyone. Rarely do I get a comment from a coach, and all of them have been positive.

the rule says the home team manager will present the ground rules to the umpires and visiting manager and IF they are acceptable then that's what will be used. who do you think determines if they are acceptable?

this is the actual piece of paper that was posted in the new britain stadium (AA Eastern League) umpire locker room.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/d...newbritain.jpg

Very interesting - thanks for posting that. When you work there, is it customary to correct the errors in the ground rules every game or just with new managers? The piece of paper looks ancient.

Thrown ball into dugout or stands from infielders - one base

Thrown ball into dugout or stands from outfielder - two bases

:confused:

You've obviously never seen the "Oak Monster." :D

of all the issues those have, THAT'S the one you pick??? how about batted or thrown ball hits umpire, dead ball? or throw from fielder hts on deck batter, dead ball? or bated ball hits pitcher's in bullpen, double????

the piece of paper can't be too ancient...the stadium was opened in 96. at the league meeting the president asked for a volunteer to update the ground rules as they were pretty much awful throughout the league. i started doing it but my interests changed as the season progressed. to answer your question about what is customary at the plate meeting...typically we run through the ground rules at the start of each series ifit is the ffirst visit for the visitors to that stadium that year. if it is not their first visit then we just ask if they have any questions. however, at this stadium there are so many weird things going on with the outfield wall that we pretty much went all the way around before the start of each series whether it was the first trip in or not.

I never let base awards become part of my plate meeting. When a coach ask or tells me how many bases a person gets, I tell them that we will determine the award of bases based on the play. I stop them right there with any more qustions about that subject and move on.