2008 HOF Ballot
 

The 2008 ballot features 25 candidates, with 14 returnees and 11 newcomers.
• Brady Anderson
• Harold Baines
• Rod Beck
• Bert Blyleven
• Dave Concepcion
• Andre Dawson
• Shawon Dunston
• Chuck Finley
• Travis Fryman
• Rich Gossage
• Tommy John
• David Justice
• Chuck Knoblauch
• Don Mattingly
• Mark McGwire
• Jack Morris
• Dale Murphy
• Robb Nen
• Dave Parker
• Tim Raines
• Jim Rice
• Jose Rijo
• Lee Smith
• Todd Stottlemyre
• Alan Trammell
Source: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...=.jsp&c_id=mlb

• Brady Anderson -Hell no
• Harold Baines -Yes
• Rod Beck -No
• Bert Blyleven -Yes
• Dave Concepcion -Definitely
• Andre Dawson -Yes
• Shawon Dunston -Not yet
• Chuck Finley -Not yet
• Travis Fryman -No
• Rich Gossage -Absolutely
• Tommy John -Positively
• David Justice -Not Yet
• Chuck Knoblauch -Not Yet
• Don Mattingly -Of course
• Mark McGwire -You're kidding, right
• Jack Morris -Yes
• Dale Murphy -Yes
• Robb Nen -Not yet
• Dave Parker -Way overdue
• Tim Raines -Yes
• Jim Rice -Yes
• Jose Rijo -Not yet
• Lee Smith -Also overdue
• Todd Stottlemyre -No. I'd sooner vote for Mel.
• Alan Trammell -Yes to the S.D. Kearney HS grad!

Who cares?

I'd rather know which umpires are on vacation and when.

One of the funniest posts I've read in a long time on here...good off season humor!!

SDS,
Please explain your "not yet" vote. Either someone is good enough to get in the Hall or not. Will the stats get better over time? I am not trying to stir up some $h!t, I am truly curious how you feel.

• Dave Parker -Way overdue

I could not possibly agree less. Parker was one who surely had all the tools, but he snorted them away as he snorted his coke. Parker was one of those who never came anywhere near being the player he should have been, let alone the player he was capable of being.

Not yet, as in "not at this time." There are more deserving players who have waited much longer for enshrinement. The players that I said were overdue are the ones who should go in first. The "not yet" crowd have the HOF stats, but can wait their turn like everyone else.

I like coke!;)

Until they change the name to the Hall of Pretty Good, I've got none of the above.

Chuck Knoblauch??? YGTBSM.

.289 lifetime (.258 post season)
1 ROY, 1 Gold Glove

And the Yanks had to pull him off the field 'cause he couldn't make the throw to 1st base (he was a 2nd baseman!).

Sportswriters. Gimme a break. Let the players vote instead.

Damn, kyle, if none of those guys belong, you need to go to Cooperstown and destroy about 20 plaques.

• Brady Anderson No
• Harold Baines No
• Rod Beck No
• Bert Blyleven YES! (why is this guy not in?)
• Dave Concepcion Yes
• Andre Dawson No
• Shawon Dunston No
• Chuck Finley No
• Travis Fryman No
• Rich Gossage No
• Tommy John No
• David Justice No
• Chuck Knoblauch No
• Don Mattingly No
• Mark McGwire No
• Jack Morris Yes
• Dale Murphy No
• Robb Nen No
• Dave Parker No
• Tim Raines No
• Jim Rice Yes
• Jose Rijo No
• Lee Smith No
• Todd Stottlemyre No
• Alan Trammell No

I have a bias toward two-way players, even if their batting stats aren't the most impressive among the candidates.

Not only would I not vote for Gossage and Smith, I'd kick out Sutter, Fingers and Eckersley. "I can get four guys out every other day" isn't HOF stuff.

If we apply the "five or six years of sheer brilliance" standard that got Koufax and Drysdale elected, then I'd vote for Dale Murphy.

I think you are over-simplifying the role of the closer in baseball. As if other people could actually do what these guys can do. Closers belong in the Hall of Fame as much as any starter does. Some teams would have never even gotten a sniff of the playoffs, much less gone to the World Series, without the players you just mentioned.

Padres fans like myself are very thankful that we have Trevor Hoffman as our most valuable asset every year, saving over 500 games over his career. And I remember 1984 as if it were yesterday, and Goose Gossage sure pulled our bacon out of the fire on many occassions. Same with Rollie Fingers. Sutter, Eckersly...how can you even blaspheme their names by wanting to kick them out of the HOF? Where would the Cardinals have been without them?

It's a good thing that we don't have any say-so in this voting, because some of us are awfully critical of some very deserving players.

Relievers aren't eligible for your Hall of Fame? That makes a whole lot of sense...:confused:

The Cardinals would have been in the same place there are now, with the exception of Sutter :p

Just pulling your chain....saying relievers don't belong is like saying DHs don't belong- it's not naming the best players of all-time, just the ones that made the greatest impact/contribution to the game on the field.

Taken from the Official MLB stats page:

Knoblauch had a career on base percentage of .378. Batting average is way over-rated. A hit is more beneficial than a walk only when there is a runner in scoring position.

Knoblauch also struck out almost as often as he walked.

Guess you're not counting extra-base hits.

Chuck Knoblauch

Career Hits - 1839
Career K's - 730

Roughly 2 1/2 hits per strikeout

20 would be a minimum, plus I'd boot all the umpires. Safe, out, ball, strike. Throw in some rules and good knees. Big deal. How about the guy who runs the scoreboard at Wrigley, or the lady who plays the organ too? Scully? Yes. Bill Klem? I don't think so.

I did like seeing the uniform Gina Davis wore in "A League of Their Own" at the Hall though. Jocko Conlan's beanie did nothing for me.

Not even close to being in the top 100. And that's all you can say about him? He doesn't belong on this list. Jason Giambi has a higher OBP.

He said walk, not hit.

Yup. Ya got me. :(

:confused:
Shawon Dunston? Who nominates these guys - their mothers?

JJ

• Jim Rice -If he doesn't get in, none of the following should
• Brady Anderson -Hell no
• Harold Baines -No
• Rod Beck -No
• Bert Blyleven -No
• Dave Concepcion -No
• Andre Dawson -Yes
• Shawon Dunston -No
• Chuck Finley -No
• Travis Fryman -No
• Rich Gossage -Yes
• Tommy John -Yes
• David Justice -No
• Chuck Knoblauch -No
• Don Mattingly -No
• Mark McGwire -No
• Jack Morris -Yes
• Dale Murphy -No
• Robb Nen -No
• Dave Parker -No
• Tim Raines -No
• Jose Rijo -No
• Lee Smith -No
• Todd Stottlemyre -No
• Alan Trammell -No

Relievers are eligible for my HOF; I just can't find one I'd vote for. What they contribute relative to position players and starting pitchers isn't HOF worthy. If a guy spends his career as a DH, I'd never vote for him, either.

Now, Steve, I know you're going to disagree, but your claim that teams wouldn't have gotten to the playoffs is sheer speculation. It can't be proven or disproven. True in some cases, not in others. I'd be more impressed with saves if the rule granting one weren't so liberal. Two outs, last inning. Reliever comes in with a three-run lead and a runner on first. He gives up a two-run shot, then a double before the next guy flies out to the warning track. Save. Joke.

How many saves are granted to closers after set-up guys and middle relievers do the heavy lifting? R1, R2, no outs. Set-up guy strikes out two batters, then closer comes in, walks a batter and retires the next one. Save. Joke.

The save is the most overrated stat in baseball. I'm curious as to how many would be granted under a different condition: you don't get one unless you enter the game with the tying run in scoring position (not on deck). If a guy chalked up 300 of THOSE in a career, I'd vote to put him in the HOF.

Tawny Kitaen belongs in the Hall before Chuck Finley. After all, look at all the hits she got on him......... :rolleyes:

Hey, Trevor Hoffman nearly always puts the tying run on base. Does that count?

I guess the lesson learned here is that a bunch of umpires who post on the internet is not the best group from which to base who should go into the Hall.

Everyone is eligible after 5 years out of the game.

No doubt. Particularly the ones who seem to have but a single criterion:

"Did you take steroids? You didn't? OK, you're in."

The Hall of Fame umpires all had an impact on the game in addition to possessing great judgement. Bill KLem created arm signals and the inside protector, Cal Hubbard, developed positioning for base umpires, Jocko Conlan was colorful and a natty dresser and well respected, Al Barlick umped in 7 all star games and 7 world series,Tom Connolly took over development of umpires for the American League after a great career on the field, same for Billy Evans who was a prolific author on umpiring, Bill McGowan worked 8 world series and never missed an inning in his career,Nestor Chylak dealt with such unprecedented unruly fans from ten cent beer night, and disco demolition, in addition to being one of the most respected umpires of all time.

Anyone who diminishes their election to the Hall of Fame diminishes the game, as well.

I sure hope that idiot Ron Luciano didn't make it.

My finalists (the rest would never get in) would be:

• Bert Blyleven - A 287-250 pitcher on some dreadful teams.

• Andre Dawson - 2774 hits, 438 home runs. Never played in a World Series.

• Rich Gossage - 10 years as dominating closer. He's borderline for the same reason as Dale Murphy -- the second half of his career was less than spectacular.

• Jack Morris - Even with only 254 wins. Put the ball in his hands and you'd win.

• Dale Murphy - See Rich Gossage.

• Jim Rice - The only advantage Rice has over Murphy is batting average and an earlier retirement.

At the end of the day, I'd vote for Blyleven, Dawson, and Rice in that order.

I'd pass on McGwire because he was a dreadful player before the HGH/Steroids era. It's how I can justify seeing Bonds in and McGwire not in. I liked watching Dave Kingman hit, too, but McGwire's Oakland years resembled Kingman more than Bonds.

Those that dismiss Luciano only know him from his books. He was a very good umpire who decided that umpiring didn't need to be boring.

He'd never get in the HOF anyway. He only umpired for 12 seasons before he got bored with it and tried television, sporting goods, and writing. It's too bad that mental illness claimed him so young.

It's why Harvey should get in, certainly, but they also should take a hard look at Jim Evans and Harry Wendlestedt and their contributions both on and off the field.

Wow, that's pretty cheeky of your young a$$ to call someone like Ron Luciano an idiot. You seem very disrespectful of your elders. Your mommy should have washed your mouth out with soap a few times. It sounds like you were a spoiled child.

How do you take the Goose and not Eckersley?

Do you never tire of looking like a fool?

He's not on the list considering he was elected to the HOF in 2004.

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/ho...layerId=113726

[giggle]

I like broadcasters in the Hall, but not umpires. I'll make an effort to listen to Scully call a game, yet I couldn't care less who's behind dish. Trust me, more baseball fans know who Eddie Layton is than all the MLB umpires who ever called a game combined. http://www.ultimateyankees.com/layton1.jpg

No one cares about umpires except other umpires. And not even all us care who's in the Hall, the next AAA ump in line for the call, or who's on vacation in July.

p.s. I loved Luciano when I was a kid. I used to shoot runners out when I was an eleven year old umpire, and he was my hero. He belongs in the Umpire's Hall of Fame, somewhere in Florida.

Eddie Layton is dead and a trivia answer to who played for the Yankees, Knicks and the Rangers. It is not a question that anyone outside of New York could answer or would care to even know the answer.
Organs are no longer part of most modern baseball stadiums having been replaced by such things as kiss cams, animation screens, and tee shirt giveaways.

Last time I checked umpires are still required, by the rules, to play the game.

A play on words. Cheeky, and a$$. Good one! I'm sure Steven Tyler would be proud.

First of all, the correct term to use is mother. Have some respect. As for the soap thing, we're in the 21st century. Studies have proven that corporal punishment is an ineffective way to solve problems.

What does disrespecting Ron Luciano have to do with one's childhood? I don't care how many Major League games he did. I read two of his books, and could list hundreds of idiotic things he admitted to doing as an umpire. To be associated with him is embarassing, so I don't understand why you are defending him.

If it were my selection
 

First Round (IN) over (OUT)
P • Bert Blyleven over P • Rod Beck
P • Tommy John over P • Chuck Finley
P • Jack Morris over P • Todd Stottlemyre
P • Lee Smith over P • Robb Nen
P • Rich Gossage over P • Jose Rijo
SS • Dave Concepcion over SS • Shawon Dunston
SS • Alan Trammell over 3B • Travis Fryman
1B • Don Mattingly over 2B • Chuck Knoblauch
RF • Dale Murphy over RF • David Justice
CF • Tim Raines over CF • Brady Anderson
LF • Andre Dawson over 1B • Mark McGwire
OF • Dave Parker over DH • Harold Baines
OF • Jim Rice

Second Round (IN) over (OUT)
P • Bert Blyleven over P • Jack Morris
P • Tommy John over P • Rich Gossage
P • Lee Smith
SS • Dave Concepcion over SS • Alan Trammell
1B • Don Mattingly
CF • Tim Raines over RF • Dale Murphy
LF • Andre Dawson over LF • Jim Rice
OF • Dave Parker

Third Round (IN) over (OUT)
P • Tommy John over P • Bert Blyleven
P • Lee Smith
1B • Don Mattingly over SS • Dave Concepcion
CF • Tim Raines
RF • Dave Parker over LF • Andre Dawson

Final Selection (IN) over (OUT)
P • Lee Smith over P • Tommy John
IF • Don Mattingly
OF • Tim Raines over OF • Dave Parker

Possibly passed over several well deserving players.
Can't explain why my choices were not selected before, nor presume they will be selected this year.

You don't have the experience he does, and we can list hundreds of idiotic things you did as an umpire.

I now see what you meant when you said that you were capable of being a higher-level umpire.

Let's see, Luciano: 11 years MLB umpire, three ALC series, two All Star games, one world series.

Cantump6: whines that he doesn't get good games and just bought his first fitted umpire hat.

Yep. You're in position to critique Luciano, all right.

That's the problem with you brats... I know my dad's belt straightened my a$$ up real quick. Same with moms soap. Doesn't work, no it worked very well. It taught me to respect those older than me. Something you need to learn.

Soap in the mouth. That's funny discipline.

"Spare the rod, spoil the child". That philosophy worked wonders in our house.

Yeah, well let me tell ya, I NEVER said another cuss word anywhere within hearing distance of my mom for 10 years after.


Sure, spoil the child ruin the man

I do not have the experience of Ron Luciano. I have never eaten hotdogs while on the bases, called a balk because a fan said "that's a balk", distracted baserunners so that they get picked off, talked to batters simply to annoy them, shown up runners when I call them out, or any of the other insane things he did. Luciano forgot to wear his uniform for his first MLB game. It sounds like he's got some supporters here, but from what I've read about this guy, I probably wouldn't allow him to do machine pitch games if I was an assignor.

As for soap in the mouth and use of the cane, words can go a lot farther than the use of physical force. Studies have shown that using inductive methods of discipline is the most effective way to reinforce desired behaviours in children. Just because one or two people report physical punishment as being effective in dealing with aversive behaviour does not mean it is effective for the majority of the human population. Diana Baumrind's research on parenting styles shows that authoritarian parenting is associated with a number of negative outcomes in children. Committed complaince is much more effective than situational complaince in promoting the internalization of values needed to regulate behaviour.

Taken from "Child Psychology". Authors: Vasta, Miller, Ellis, Younger, Gosselin. Copyright 2006.

My how you prattle.

First of all, in the interest of accuracy the title is Child Psychology, Canadian Edition.

Second, we underline book titles; we do not place them in quotes. Check with your English teacher father.

Third: "The problem with labelling all physical discipline as 'corporal punishment' is that it becomes too easy to dismiss those times, particularly when a child places his life or that of others in jeopardy, when some form of physical discipline may be appropriate. Scott Miller, University of Florida, co-author Child Psychology, Canadian Edition.

Brady Anderson-he went from speedy Punch and Judy hitter to 50 HR's. Plus he had 4% body fat and his impressive physique was on posters and magazines everwhere. I wonder if he was on roids?

Brain fart on my part..:o

Not intended as a play on words. Cheeky means being a little smart as$ to an elder. You made it a play on words, and let's leave Tyler out of this.

Mommy. I'll stick with that in your case. Studies show...so what? The Bible (which I know you don't believe in, but it's a pretty good resource for child-rearing), say's to discipline your children through corporal punishment. So the new-aged, psycho-babble that so-called child experts came up with doesn't change the fact that whoopin' a child's behind works very well, as does the soap/mouth deal. I take it that you were not disciplined in this fashion. It shows. You probably got "time-outs." Sheesh.

This just indicates that you are a fool. It goes directly to your upbringing, or lack thereof really, that you even dare to disrespect Ron Luciano, or any other older adult. Not to mention speaking ill of the dead. You were not raised, you were jerked up, as they say.

I read all 4 of Luciano's books. I didn't see anything "idiotic" about anything he did. Zany, kookie? Perhaps. Off-the-wall, nutty? Yes! Idiotic? No, not idiotic. Besides, you did not say that he did idiotic things, you called him an idiot. Pot, meet Kettle.

I'm defending Ron Luciano's memory from the likes of you, who have no respect for his accomplishments, because he is not around to defend himself.

You know it's pretty ironic that you lecture me on respect after you ignorantly dismiss the study of Psychology, refer to my mother by the wrong title, and name yourself after a Major League umpire at the other forum.

Dead or alive, Luciano did some things that are an embarrassment to umpires today. He had plenty of opportunity to defend himself during his feuds with the great Earl Weaver. Whether he's dead or alive does not change the fact that he was terrible as an umpire. From reading two of his books, I struggle to recall him mentioning anything positive about himself as an umpire. Now I do understand that he worked at a time when umpires were a part of the show like the players, but that still doesn't excuse the unprofessional things he did IMO.

Sorry Steve but that's just my opinion. You have yours, I have mine.

By the way, I love justanotherblue's signature:

I love the old "you're on my ignore list trick" because it's an admission of defeat.

[QUOTE=SanDiegoSteve]Off-the-wall, nutty? Yes! Idiotic? No, not idiotic. QUOTE]

I dunno.

If you are U1, drop to one knee, pull out your six-guns and shoot someone out in a Little League game you will branded for life an idiot.

And if you're like me, and blow the smoke of the ends of the barrels before reholstering your .45s, you just don't care. How about "colorful"?

Hey look sonny boy, get a few things straight:

I don't ignorantly dismiss the study of psychology, just your use of it in your example. Just because it is written about in books does not make it true. To say that corporal punishment is not effective is false, so don't presume that I am ignorant about anything. That is far from the truth.

I don't give a crap what you think about what I used to describe what you probably call your mother. When you were a little boy, did you call her "mother?" I doubt it, unless you're one of those pansy boys that wear short pants and knee socks to school. I was not aware that you didn't like "mommy." That is a common way little boys refer to their mothers, and you haven't grown up as of yet, so I figured that's what you call her. My bad.

And listen up chump, I did not name myself after anyone. I was given the nickname of "Augie Donatelli" by my long-time assignor who has pimples on his a$$ that are older than you, so I earned that nickname. He gave it to me out of respect after seeing me umpire. He recognized that I was a no-nonsense, take charge type of umpire, in the tradition of August Donatelli, who also took no crap off anyone. In fact, most people in the association called me Augie, and some of the newer ones thought that it was my name until told differently. I didn't name myself anything.

I have tremendous respect for the memory of Donatelli, unlike you, who have no respect for Ron Luciano's fine career, which you could only dream of having.

I don't know of one single umpire who feels embarrassed by anything Ron Luciano did. And what is so great about Earl Weaver? He was a friggin' manager! A rat. A c*ck s*cker. The bane of all AL umpires. You sound more like a rat than an umpire. Which is it, boy? And what do you mean "defend himself?" WTF is that supposed to mean? Earl would act up, Ron would toss him. That's baseball. It is part of baseball's charm. The Luciano/Weaver stories are priceless, funny episodes. Didn't you enjoy reading about them? I suppose you took Weaver's side, huh? Rodent.

Yeah, I remember reading how he dropped trou at the backstop and put his jock on outside his underwear in front of a group of little girls. No, wait a minute...that was you!:eek:

You are in way over your head battling with me, sonny britches.

When it comes to opinions about umpires, the only ones I care about are those of their partners. I recall some who didn't particularly care for some of Ron's antics on the field, but none said he was a bad umpire. Quite the contrary.

Now they got to be some funky pimples!

Appoligize for Earl Weaver arguments... LMAO... now that's funny

[QUOTE=canadaump6]A play on words. Cheeky, and a$$. Good one! I'm sure Steven Tyler would be proud.


Are you sure from Canada????? Cheeky. A British expression , correct me if I'm wrong, audacious, brash, bold or something like that. A member of the Commonwealth no less!!!!!!!!

I would pick Mattingly to make it one day, his numbers are not that much different than Kirby Pucketts.

Until THIS guy gets in, they should shut down the voting.


http://brooks.mlblogs.com/photos/unc...zed/santo.jpeg

Joe in Texas

2007 HOF Ballot Results
 

Check http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/ho....jsp?year=2007
Name Votes PCT
Gossage, Rich 388 71.2%
Rice, Jim 346 63.5%
Dawson, Andre 309 56.7%
Blyleven, Bert 260 47.7%
Smith, Lee 217 39.8%
Morris, Jack 202 37.1%
McGwire, Mark 128 23.5%
John, Tommy 125 22.9%
Concepcion, Dave 74 13.6%
Trammell, Alan 73 13.4%
Parker, Dave 62 11.4%
Mattingly, Don 54 9.9%
Murphy, Dale 50 9.2%
Baines, Harold 29 5.3%

And only one gets in.

His stats just don't support it.

Compare his stats to Brooks Robinson. Not resume', Did you ever see him play?

Tough argument there. The only stat where Brooks dominated was gold gloves, and he had no competition other than Cletis Boyer. I thought Clete should have won it a few years (the only 3rd baseman I ever saw play in on the edge of the grass for Killebrew -- talk about balls!). In the NL, it was pretty much split between Ron, and Clete's brother Ken.

Comparing stats
 

You cannot just compare stats. You must know what they mean. You cannot compare Jim Rice(playing in Fenway in the 1970's) and Willie Davis(Playiing in the pacific ocean in the 1960's) without context.

Santo led the league in on Base Pct twice and was in the top ten five other times. he was top ten in slugging five times. He had 5 gold gloves. He knocked in runs in buckets.

Bill James has Santo as the 6th best 3B of all time, and Brooksie as 7th. Instead of bar room talk, he actually uses facts that mean things.

http://www.vintagecardtraders.org/vi...4topps-375.jpg
HALL OF FAMER

Joe in Texas
(For the record, I am not a Cubs fan)

Just the facts
 

I guess I now know more about Mr. Raines and statistics than 75% of the member who voted against his induction into the Hall of Not Better than Tim Raines. Don't get me started about another small market future HOF by the name of Mr Parker. :D

Tim Raines is considered the best leadoff man in baseball history. Playing in the basement of the National League during his prime, he compiled the best stolen base percentage in baseball and scored a whole lot of runs. He did it without the help of two ANDROIDS who managed to knock in Ricky Henderson every now and then. See better SB% than Maury Wills, Willie Mays, and Jackie Robinson and everyone else in the Baseball HOF. What ever happened to that team from Montreal? :mad:

If I were Goose, I would invite Mr. Mattingly to introduce me into the HOF for all the run support he provided the Yankees when they were not a very good team. Tommy John has a major medical procedure named after him. If fame and money drive in votes, I am sure TJ's doctor has a fat bank roll by now. That is probably the single greatest achievement in baseball. It certainly isn't the single-season or career HR record. :p

Rickey
 

Tim Raines was a whale of a ballplayer(and leadoff man) and one heck of a cokehead.

BUT, the bext leadoff man ever? No, probably top 5, though.

Here is yer best leadoff man ever. If you cut him in half, you would have two Hall Of Famers.
http://www.homeruncards.com/imagesrc/hendersonrtp.jpg


Joe In Texas

Left with 2 Fantasy HOF
 

Cutting in half leaves Canseco {40/40, followed who to NY} and McGuire.
Take away their RBI's and you take the juice from Mr. Hollywood's run totals.
Had he played in Milwaukee for 10 years, he would barely make "your" top 10.

Goose and Mattingly played together for Mattingly's first 2 seasons. In that time Mattingly hit 4 HRs and had 33 RBIs. If Goose wanted to thank those that supported him with the bats it would be Reggie Jackson and Graig Nettles.

Chasing the stars
 

Don't forget Bucky Dent. It would be tough to decide if Goose was better than Tommy John? The Yankees played in two WS {76, 77} before Goose arrived {78} and Goose was later traded to a pretty good Padres team. He did put up some impressive numbers during his Yankees/Padres run, but he was never the only "tool" in the bag.

Did you see his last 7-year journeyman record? You can count the number of yearly wins or/saves on one hand. It would have been much better for Goose to have played with Mr. Mattingly, than vice-versa, during those years. How many pitcher's put up better numbers? Tommy John did.

I am happy for Goose because I think it would have been dumb for baseball not to elect anyone to the HOF. Do you know how much money that Cooperstown party generates? If I were making the cakes, I would elect 2 or 3 every year.