Plus, if he is convicted on state charges for his crimes next April, he could receive a maximum sentence of 10 years, and would not get out of jail until he is 39 years old. Wouldn't that be special.

Geeze SDS, sounds like you are in Mike Vick's head. Perhaps you will be an expert witness...

yawn.

I did not realize you actually had a conversation with Vick to know what he though. And if you would leave your state, you might realize that everyone does not look at this as a major societal concern. Secondly the maximum sentence for most crimes almost never happens for a first or even second time offender. He also plea bargained which is what both sides usually want. The prosecution gets a conviction and the defense gets a much lesser sentence if they were normally convicted by a trial. And even if someone is convicted during a trial, people do not always get the maximum sentences. Not unless you are a convicted of the mandatory minimums that are associated with many drug crimes.

I agree with most of that.

Steve, I recently had my mother's dog run away from my house when I was dog sitting. My Mom’s dog was not registered in my area and I had to play a pretty big amount of money for her being gone less than 24 hours. If I did not even contact animal control, they would have put my mother's dog to sleep. I do not know about you, but that sounds pretty cruel to me. And that is a practice that so-called dog lovers like you seems to accept. Now if you do not like my values that is your problem. I am a Christian, but I do not question the values of other Christian faiths because they are not like my own.

And to take it back to what this was all about, I do not put every act on the same plane with other acts. I personally do not care about whether someone took a substance that was not illegal to take in a sport and I do not care about dog fighting on the scale I do as other crimes that take place on a larger scale. If you beat your wife and children or get a DUI you might not spend anytime in jail. And do not kill someone like Leonard Little and you might not see 6 months in jail. Then again, you have better values.

Peace

Well, for one thing Mitchell's report named people, by verifiable evidence, who used steroids.

McCarthy named people who he said were communists without any verifiable proof.

That is not entirely true. There were people at that time that sided or belonged to the communist party and were pointed out by McCarthy. The problem is that communism or a belief in communism did not automatically mean you were against this country or that you wanted to overthrow the government. Just like taking steroids does not mean that you did so to gain an advantage that the fact that you took them you gained some competitive advantage. If what Andy Petite says is true, I do not see that as a major violation. There were no rules against it and he had a right to explore treatments to get him back onto the field.

Peace

If you're bored, don't bother to comment.

I am only restating what has been widely reported. Mike Vick showed no remorse for his actions. This is a matter of record, not something I made up.

Steve I am willing to accept your opinion, but come on now. It is a matter of record or it is a matter of your opinion? Unless you talked to him personally, I think that is based on your opinion. I do not know what record you are referencing, but I saw the apology live and he seemed pretty remorseful to me. Then again I was not outraged with the act of dog fighting and he did not have to apologize to me.

Peace

You know something, I have a very thorough knowledge of the way the judicial system works. I've slept in a Holiday Inn Express or two in my day.

Go outside my state? WTF does my living in California have to do with anything? Do you think we live in a damn bubble here or something. I've lived all over the U.S. at one time or other, including your state. Besides, we have dog fighting and c*ck fighting here in sunny California as well. They are not regional activities, but are practiced by a few morally depraved individuals in every state. And I live about 20 miles from Mexico, and I know you know that they have those things there as well.

Euthenizing dogs and brutally killing them because they didn't fight well enough for your liking are two very different things. I think it is horrible if your state puts dogs and cats to sleep after only 24 hours. In my:rolleyes: state they give the owners a couple weeks, and even then try to find homes through Adopt-A-Pet. They dont' just excecute animals willy-nilly.

It also just dawned on me: You were "dog sitting," and the one thing you were responsible for ran away? Remind me not to ever let you babysit my nieces and nephews!;)

Your sarcasm aside, I agree with most of what you said.:rolleyes:

Yes, he apologized. After he realized he was screwed!!!

For the longest time he maintained total innocence and even up until his "apology" he showed no remorse and acted like it was no big deal.

I know I can't legislate morality, but to not be outraged with dog fighting, or the killing of said dogs, speaks volumes about your values. I know that it is none of my business what you think or feel, but I do wonder what Jesus would think about your lack of disgust. Hmmmm.

Hey, how 'bout that Mitchell Report, huh? Man what a gas!

I have been to California a few times and it is a very different place than other parts of the country. And I was in San Diego for most of one summer. I will leave it at that.

Killing animals is killing animals no matter how you do it. And if one form of killing is supposed to be of higher value than I disagree with that statement. And it was not until a few years ago that this was even a crime. We are not going to agree with this no matter how you slice it.

Here is another example of how you do not understand values of others. I understand how and why you feel the way you do, I just do not hold that same value. I have to walk my dog. I do not have to walk a child. You put a dog outside. You do not put a child outside. Children either use the bathroom or have a diaper. Dogs go to bathroom outside. I know that is a hard concept for you to understand by the dog got away. If you had a dog you would know that this is not an uncommon occurrence. At least it is in areas where dogs are not accessories. I think you have been in California too long. ;)

Peace

I'm sorry, did you say English major? Wow. I guess capitalization and punctuation are no longer taught in some schools.

With all due respect people that are potentially being accused of crimes do not go around telling the world they are sorry if they are willing to go to court. And neither you nor I were around him to know what kind of remorse he showed. If it was I, I would have fought to the end over such a silly thing. I have seen many athletes or public figures commit worse acts and you do not see the outrage over those acts but be involved in dog fighting and the sky is going to fall.

And if I recall Jesus did not talk about dog fighting as a sin or address specifically the many ways we treat animals as it relates to hunting, cock fighting, dog fighting, horse racing or any number of activities that involve animals. I do not expect you to deal with the hypocrisy that I pointed out. Dog fighting is bad, hunting is OK. That makes sense.

Peace

You're right, big yawn. Reminds me of some one else who thinks they're never wrong. If boring people to death was a punishable offense they would be serving a life sentence without the chance of parole. Too bad, we're the ones being punished though.

And you never smoked pot, taken acid, speed, downers, beans, hoppers, bangers, or overdosed on simple aspirin or cold medicine (something that 80% of the population does)? You never spoke out against a political faction or person in your life? Cut the crap, Steve! You may not like the man because of your political beliefs and that is fine. He is an avid sports fan just as the rest of us and is entitled to his opinion like everyone else!

The sarcasm smiley suggests that these errors might be intentional, but I doubt it.

Just what we need. Another lawyer who can't write.

My favorite Gonzaga story:

Back sometime around 1985 or 86, the every graduate of the Gonzaga Law School who took the Bar Exam flunked the ethics portion.

Somehow, it seemed appropriate for "would-be" attorneys to fail to grasp ethics.

Ethics courses are a joke. The definition of right and wrong varies from society to society and time period to time period.

As a side note, I'm going for my G2 today. I won't have to bike to games anymore.

It doesn't appear you are familiar with ethics classes as they apply to law school.

And I said I've lived around the country, including a stint in Illinois. Totally irrelevant to the conversation.

You are right. We won't agree. I already explained the difference between legal hunting and the unnecessary slaughter of domesticated animals. If you don't know the difference...

Are you really as obtuse as you sound here? My God man, you assume a great deal. I have been a dog owner since I was born. Over the years I have had many dogs, including a Pit Bull/Lab mix (black and white) named Brutus who I loved dearly. I just found it ironic that you lost the dog while dog sitting. That's funny. (I'm LMAO).

To say that I don't understand other people's values is a ridiculous statement. I just don't agree with yours. I don't really give a rat's a$$ about you or your values, but I do understand other people's values. Again, there's a difference between understanding and not giving a sh*t.

I have always owned dogs, and currently have two. Since I have been married (16+ years this time), I have had 5 including the two current dogs. I have an 11 year old Husky/St. Bernard mix who unfortunately has had a skin condition since she was about a year old. I love her more than life itself. I have a black Golden Retriever who is 8 years old. She is my baby. I love my dogs like they were actual children (I also have a 29 year old daughter). They are our children. I don't put my dogs outside. I would sooner put a child outside. My dogs are much better behaved than most children. My dogs go outside to go to the park, the beach, or to the bathroom. The rest of the time they are inside where they belong, as part of the family.

My dogs are not accessories, and this ain't Beverly Hills. I live in a fairly rural area, complete with pickup trucks, gun racks, and Hell's Angels. I'm sure that there is dog fighting within 5 miles of my house.

I can't believe you think the way you do. Dogs as accessories, puleeeeze.

I have long advocated that we combine the words "empathetic" and "apathetic" to form "emapathetic", meaning, "I know how you feel, but I don't give a sh!t."

I think where you live are very much an issue. I crew up in rural Illinois where there were corn fields and farming all over the place. I now live in a suburb of Chicago and the people and their values are very different from where I grew up. People around here do not hunt; they even mock other parts of the state because they feel the people in other parts are not as sophisticated as they are because they are "in the city." People around here act like they go into another world if it is outside of the Chicago area. So yes, it is very relevant to where you are and the type of values (and yes a value of how you treat animals is included).

It is obvious you did not grow up in the same area I did, it was common to have dogs running around where I grew up and not on a leash when people walked their dogs. It was also common to have the neighbors dogs running in and out of my yard and that we would know all the dogs and who they belonged to. Dogs in the community got away all the time because they were allowed to be outside and when I first got my dog back in 1991, she got away several times because she liked being outside and she would run away even if you opened the door trying to keep her inside. It was not the first time that happened it just took place in a different town. She loves running around and chasing rabbits or any other animal she gets around. She just does not move as fast now.

Also since you mentioned you had a Pit Bull, that breed was considered to be banned in Cook County after several attacks by those dogs on children and adults which resulted in death. The remedy for the outlawing of these dogs was killing them if people did not find a place for them. So it was OK to kill an entire breed because they would have been illegal, but Dog fighting is so inhumane? Then again that would probably be OK with you. I see killing as killing, I do not care how you do it. If one is OK, the other should be OK.

The reason I say this is because you act like everyone is outraged about this as you are. They are not. And I have said that I do not see dog fighting as a major deal and in many cultures dogs are not held in such high regard. My parents are from the south and I could not have a dog anytime before I left HS because they did not value animals the way many do. And my grandmother that had a dog would not let that dog in her house and she lived in Florida.

Of course you do not. Because I have seen people take dogs and put them in little bags and carry them around in the Chicago area. And one of the people that made that practice popular is someone seen on TV and they live in California. And if some of those same people were asked to help human beings in other parts of the country or world they would rather carry a dog around then give a dollar to someone that is homeless. There was a woman who left millions of dollars to her dog, not to a charity or to another human being that could have used the money or added to her legacy. I find that action a little out of whack. Sorry you think it is normal.

Peace

You can place me in with the 20% group. As for my political beliefs, the media has slanted their views to favor figureheads such as Reagan, and both of the Bush presidents. Clinton and Gore bashing follow as they tend to take anything they can and try to build it into a travesty. This is the norm because these outlets generally play to a certain audience. They might even benefit profit wise with the changing of laws proposed by the politicians they supported.

Rush Limbaugh is what's wrong with reporting in America today. He is just plain bias. He's a real sports fan alright. I'm sure everyone still remembers his short stint on the ESPN Sunday morning pregame football show. You know, the one where he called out the media for being too soft on black quarterbacks and they were getting a free pass on criticism for their game performance because they were black. Just your typical right wing conservative Christian wave the flag moron.

There's a difference between showing contrition for a wrongful act and showing the same for being caught for committing that wrongful act. I don't believe Vick is remorseful in the least for committing the crime. He's a POS who had millions of dollars in his coffers, and chose to exploit and torture innocent animals for profit and entertainment.


Tim.

mbyron, FYI
 

It must be nice to have a life where you can listen Rush Limbaugh. I don't get the chance to, so please don't assume something you don't know about.

Thanks.

I didn't assume anything. I wrote that your statement sounds like Rush Limbaugh. It does, whether or not you listen to him. I made no claims about you personally, or your life; thanks returning the favor.

So you are a relativist then?

The point of an ethics course isn't to force feed the pupils one school of thought.

This has been one of the most entertaining threads I've read in a long time. I think it even relates to baseball somewhere.

Whether he did show remorse or not is not the issue and who really cares. He got the sentence he got, he will be out in a certain time in good behavior and when he comes out I will be interested in watching his games. Guess what, the dogs are still dead and dogs are not human beings and this is why many people on the day of his sentence wore his jersey and gave him support. Not everyone cares about dogs above the actions human beings do to other human beings.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...s/thumbsup.gif

Peace

Yet another example of a coddled individual allowed to skate by on all sorts of behavior due to athletic prowess finally stepping over the line. Vick committed a crime, admitted to it, and is now serving his sentence. Why anyone would make excuses for him or expect he should be let off, yet again, is completely beyond me. But that's one of the things that makes this country great. Anyone can say any completely stupid thing they want and think it makes sense.

Regarding the Mitchell report. Why does it seem everyone keeps trying to place these actions under the criminal system of beyond a reasonable doubt? This is nothing more than an employee/employer situation (admittedly magnified because of the public nature of the business). Any actions taken by one or the other that is not criminal will be settled in the civil court. And there, it is the proof of what is most likely, not what is beyond a reasonable doubt.

I'm somewhere in between realist and relativist. There is an objective reality, but we all interpret it in a different way, creating subjective reality. We will never see things the way they objectively are, but so long as our subjective interpretations are consistent we will be fine. If my angle behind the plate causes me to see a certain pitch knick the outside corner, and I see it from this angle all game, nobody can argue.

Let me give you an example of why I have a problem with this report. David Justice was accused of using steroids because he had a conversation with someone associated with a club he was on. No paper trail, no eyewitness reports, just a conversation that he had years ago about the drug which even did not suggest that Justice claimed he was using or used the drugs previously.

I keep bring it back to officiating. Would it be fair if you worked a conferences and someone took a conversation you had years ago and assumed that you helped throw a game all based on a conversation? Then as a result you are known as a cheater by everyone because your name was put in a report with people they actually proved or admitted to throwing games? I put this on the same plane as NBA Officials being mentioned in a report about throwing games with Tim Donaghy based only on information that they had a conversation with Donaghy or were accused by Donaghy without any cooperation and then the accused official also loses their job or their reputation.

Would that be fair?

Peace

So, in your mind it's acceptable to torture domestic animals. Wow......


Tim.

Are you trying to say the Mitchell report has accused Justice of being a steroid user on the "evidence" of only having a conversation with someone that did not involve the use of steroids? Really!

Yeah that is what I said. Do not let reading get in the way of a good story.

Then again, people actually read what people say here? :rolleyes:

Peace

According to Justice and many other reports he was only shown to have a conversation with a person associated with a club. He was not the only one implicated like that but I do not remember those individuals because they were marginal players.

Also the report implicated people who wrote checks to clubhouse attendance which is a common practice in MLB because player paid them to run all kinds of errands for the players. For example they might have them run to the store or have their car fixed or do any number of things because the players are usually busy at the ball park. I am sure many of these guys are guilty, but MLB was having rumblings over steroids just like football did back in the 80s when Canseco and McGuire were on the A's and I did not see the ground swell back then for drug testing. The NFL started drug testing soon after Lyle Alzado (sp??) was going around claiming he was dying because of long time steroid use. And I am sure there were many more than 1% of players using as well.

Peace

The Mitchell Report is not based on any conversation....it is based on verifiable conversations. It is not legal evidence, but it is dependable evidence on what players talked about and did.

Free Vick
 

Vick lost $70 million in contracts and endorsements and is also doing jail time. Few would agree with your assessment.
Attorneys address those things, saving Michael time and money. Do you think Michael isn't listening?
Unlike a current NFL player, Michael Vick is paying the price for his crime. Don't hate him cause he's young or black or quarterback. Vick has become that token symbol for America.
Some would argue that it is humane to kill animals severly injured and on the verge of death. If you value human life {abolish death penalty, abortion, torture, genocide, etc.} then I respect your opinion. Otherwise, its crap, dog.

What little shred of respect I had for you just went up in smoke. It's not only mildly pathetic that you feel this way, it's an outright indictment on your character. Sad, Jeff, truly sad.................


Tim.

Redskins can make a difference
 

I witness two young men grow substantially bigger in high school (1980-82). Both young men went on to play small time college football. Reportedly, one later became a "body guard/bouncer" and was gunned down in Atlanta by one of those Mac-10s/oizies (Sp?) before their ban and 15 round ammo clips were reduced to 10. Reportedly, gang execution. Funny nothing has changed very seriously about the death of young black men at the hands of young black men. But a few F&^k*)G pitt bulls die at the hands of a black man and America is in an uproar!

1985 to 2005, MLB did nothing about steroids. The leading cause of death for black teenagers wasn't steroids. I predict it will continue for at least another 5 years until folks in the NFL, NBA, and MLB finally bring attention to the minority genocide taking place. Will see if the recent death of a football star will have any impact.

RIP #21.

Interesting
 

Spurs/Suns play tonight. I'll watch for cheaters. :D

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra.../funnypost.gif

I really hope that you are not thinking I actually give a damn that you had respect for me in the first place. Sorry, just keeping it real.

Peace

Michael Vick will never play a down again in the NFL.
By the time he is released 1350 new NFL players will have been drafted with credentials equal or better than his.

Moreover, 10-20 quarterbacks for Atlanta will have gotten more reps than he has in cleaning toilets in cell bock 13.

And the CFl is not an option since convicted felons cannot travel across international borders.

SAump's recent post prompted me to supply this link to U.S. Department of Justice statistics on "Criminal Victimization in the United States," broken down by a wide number of categories, including race. The web page has links to files containing statistics from 1996 to 2005, and many of the figures are truly astounding. In reading some of the charts, I have had to pause in disbelief and look at the figures several times to be sure I'm reading them properly.

The statistical tables report only on crimes that had human victims.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cvusst.htm

Well, his post was not that funny. You go ahead and live your life as you choose, and feel free to ignore our input. You are right, it doesn't matter at all whatever people say on this forum. It's a free-for-all at best, and we are all free-thinkers. Each of us has the right to our own opinions and the right to express them. Just keep in mind that your opinions in this matter are in the minority. That means that less than 50% of the people feel the way you do. See how condescending that sounds when someone tells you what something means, as if you didn't already know?

Whether Rutledge wants to admit it or not, he is in the minority on this one. Most people are very outraged about it, and feel Vick got off easy. Just read any blog or forum about the case, and you will see the vast majority of folks feel that Vick showed no remorse and is not in the least sorry for his actions. Sorry he got caught is what he is. He called his crimes "immature." Yeah, like most 14 year olds are running dog fighting rings. He still has not said that what he did was sick, repulsive and disgusting, which tells me that he's not really sorry.

Rutledge, I grew up in a very rural setting. My dog had the run of 2/3 acre plus a huge field (5 or 6 acres) next to our house. Nobody I know of abused their animals. And I've never met anyone who puts their dog in a purse as a fashion accessory. You are confusing celebrities with the real people again. You watch too much TV.

Again, put down the bong and come down before posting. Maintain, dude. I said that he lost a lot of money. It is his fault.


That is the most stupid, bigoted statement I think I've ever heard. If he were old, white and a garbage collector, we the people would feel exactly the same way. I am so sick of people trying to use the race card, or excuse one's actions because of their race. How pathetic.

You have a point here. After Vick's dogs were no longer able to perform because of his sick dog fighting, the dogs were probably happy to die. There are still humane ways of euthenizing an animal, such as an intravenous shot. You don't have to beat their heads into the pavement or electrocute them or hang them. If you think that is acceptable, you are a sick puppy yourself.

Abolish the death penalty? Why would I want to do this. Kill someone/lose your life. Check it out, it's biblical.

I am anti-abortion. It's your side of the aisle that promotes that barbaric form of birth-control for women who go get knocked up but fail to think of the circumstances that follow.

Torture, genocide? What torture are you talking about? If you mean the terrorists at Gitmo, I'm all for it. Otherwise, I'm against it. I am pro-Sudan and I hate any kind of genocide. Am I in now?

Wow, maybe now I will change my mind...................http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...ages/think.gif..................NOT!!!!! http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...ner_neener.gif

Peace

VA authorities 70, Vick 7
 

News of 70 dogs "put down" simply for being pitt bulls.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=PyLY599eA_c
Majority opinion
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0TaB-4m_AXg&feature=related
Vick and associates record
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zkhTgPcQ_Pc&feature=related
The apology
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iEo9ZboWYfk&feature=related
Minority opinion {Warning for Language Content}
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-et1R...eature=related
The Indictment states max 6 years, $350 in fines
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwXYS...eature=related
ESPN reports 90% reach plea agreement
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-et1R...eature=related
PETA's position on dogfighting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDuRP...eature=related
Cultural affairs comment
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LwxODTAaBOA&feature=related
The Reverand Sharpton speaks
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GaQsmGaZJzk&feature=related
Today's Idiot translates his message
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YlH5UBZbGvI&feature=related

We're Buddies
 

You said he got off easy. He deserved a harsher punishment. Blah Blah Blah

Sometimes I think I am on another planet. I suppose token may have been taken out of context too. Remember Doug Williams. Did the same description of him 20 years ago offend anyone?

I prefer shooting pitt bulls and burying them. I am too scared to approach them with needles, electricity, a hangsman noose, or a tub of water. All legal forms of public execution. Did you imply dogs deserve any better?

Big time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler You can place me in with the 20% group. As for my political beliefs, the media has slanted their views to favor figureheads such as Reagan, and both of the Bush presidents. Clinton and Gore bashing follow as they tend to take anything they can and try to build it into a travesty. This is the norm because these outlets generally play to a certain audience. They might even benefit profit wise with the changing of laws proposed by the politicians they supported. Rush Limbaugh is what's wrong with reporting in America today. He is just plain bias. He's a real sports fan alright. I'm sure everyone still remembers his short stint on the ESPN Sunday morning pregame football show. You know, the one where he called out the media for being too soft on black quarterbacks and they were getting a free pass on criticism for their game performance because they were black. Just your typical right wing conservative Christian wave the flag moron.

Well, your political beliefs are your beliefs (no matter what anyone says). As far as the press goes, most of the media is biased to the left and has been for years (at least the fifty five that I’ve been on this earth). No one realized that until people from the right got their own shows and put out the “other side of things”. Too many people out there are “spoon fed” the vomit that spews from the regular news media, and they accept it like mindless fools. That is their prerogative, I guess.

Rush’s comment on ESPN was nothing that I haven’t stated for years. He just did it in public and it upset a lot of people. The problem with the statement is that it is true! Not only in sports but in other avenues and it is a sensitive subject so I will not go into that any more.

Lastly, Steve, your concept of the right wing is a little skewed. Not all are Christian, very few are morons. I do not consider a simple Republican as a right wing individual. Only true conservatives are on the right. The rest are “middle of the road”, fools that have no values or true beliefs. But as far as being a flag waver, what’s wrong with standing up for our country and waving the flag? It seems that when Liberals want to insult Conservatives, they always mention something about waving the flag. I personally love the Flag of the United States and display it twenty four hours a day at my home. That Flag means a lot to me because it allowed my ancestors to come to this country and finally be at peace! You know not what repression, death and enslavement is unless you talk to someone that lived through WWII in Nazi Germany! The horror that my family went through should never, ever happen again as long as the United States is around to halt it!

What many people out there (yourself included) don’t realize is when a bullet is heading your way from the enemy’s rifle, it never asks if the receiver is a Liberal or Conservative now does it?

Sorry for the monolog, this is not the place for this discussion so I will end it here. My apologies to all. Merry Christmas!

Vick was sentenced to 23 months in prison which was a half year longer than the prosecution asked for. It is also in keeping with sentences for similar offenders. Most people who have an opinion seem to have been hoping for something on the order of 5 days in the electric chair, but the sentence he got was neither too harsh or too lenient.

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Hope you didn't get overwhelmed.
:)

Borrowed from an Atlanta Braves fansite:

First, you put your innocent plea in.
Now you've taken your innocent plea out.
You hadn't told the truth.
In fact, you shook it all about.

You'll be a Hokie in the Pokey 'til you turn yourself around.
That's what it's all about.


Remember when you put your middle finger in; Then you stuck your middle finger out?
Flipped off the Falcon fans
'Cuz you couldn't take their shouts.

You'll be a Hokie in the Pokey 'til you turn yourself around.
That's what it's all about.


When you put your baggage in
You left your "water" bottle out.
Something seemed suspicious
So the authorities called you out.

You'll be a Hokie in the Pokey 'til you turn yourself around.
That's what it's all about.


She said you put your bad self in,
And spread herpes all about.
Called yourself "Ron Mexico"
To provide some "reasonable doubt".

You'll be a Hokie in the Pokey 'til you turn yourself around.
That's what it's all about.


Your little brother was in.
Then lil' bro was out.
Then lil' bro was back in.
Til even the Hokies threw him out.

You'll be a Hokie in the Pokey 'til you turn yourself around.
That's what it's all about.


You let the dogs in
But wouldn't let the dogs out.
You made them fight each other
'Til one of them passed out.

You'll be a Hokie in the Pokey 'til you turn yourself around.
That's what it's all about.


Nike put its money in.
Now Nike's takin' its money out.
Don't like your electrocuting pups
Or shaking them all about.

You'll be a Hokie in the Pokey 'til you turn yourself around.
That's what it's all about.


Your friends took your money in.
They passed your money out.
They said they had your back.
Until you lost your clout.

You'll be a Hokie in the Pokey 'til you turn yourself around.
That's what it's all about.


You took millions of dollars in.
You gave thousands of dollars out.
You're still Tech's poster child
Though you never graduated out.

You'll be a Hokie in the Pokey 'til you turn yourself around.
That's what it's all about.


The NFL, you were in.
But the NFL may kick you out.
You threw it all away.
And, for what, I can't figure out.

You'll be a Hokie in the Pokey 'til you turn yourself around.
That's what it's all about.


You had it ALL in;
But it's nearly ALL out.
You had the golden life
And you pissed all of it out.

You'll be a Hokie in the Pokey 'til you turn yourself around.
That's what it's all about.

Do the Hokie in the Pokey.
Do the Hokie in the Pokey.
Do the Hokie in the Pokey.
And THAT'S what it's all about.

Steven......Don't confuse reporting with commentary. Rush does commentary. O'rielly does commentary and so does Hannity. Like it or not, you do not have to listen to it. Just as I have a choice not to listen to Air America, MSNBC, Gil Gross, and NPR.

Then here's a little something for the narrow mined, Halliburton supporting, thinking America is the bomb especially when they're dropping them, I got mine screw the rest.



Conservative Christian, right wing Republican, straight, white, American male.
Gay bashin’, black fearin’, poor fightin’, tree killin’, regional leaders of the South
Frat housin’, keg tappin’, shirt tuckin’, back slappin’ haters of hippies like me.
Tree huggin’, peace lovin’, pot smokin’, porn watchin’ lazyass hippies like me.
Tree huggin’, love makin’, pro choicen, gay weddin’, widespread diggin’ hippies like me.
Skin color-blinded, conspiracy-minded, protesters of corporate greed,
We who have nothing and most likely will ‘till we all wind up locked up in jails
By conservative Christian, right wing Republican, straight, white, American males,.

Diamonds and dogs, boys and girls, living together in two separate worlds
Following leaders of mountains of shame, looking for someone to blame.

Diamonds and dogs, boys and girls, living together in two separate worlds
Following leaders of mountains of shame, looking for someone to blame.

I know who I like to blame:

Conservative Christian, right wing Republican, straight, white, American males,
Soul savin’, flag wavin’, Rush lovin’, land pavin’ personal friends to the Quayles
Quite diligently workin’ so hard to keep the free reins of this Democracy
From tree huggin’, peace lovin’, pot smokin’, barefootin’ folk-singin’ hippies like me.
Tree huggin’, peace lovin’, pot smokin’, porn watchin’ lazyass hippies like me.

Wait for it..........................

Why would an umpire mess around with Steroids?

The first one that did would be in jail, just to show the world that MLB is getting serious about steroid use.

Is this what everyone is waiting for? A recent survey shows that on a one to one hundred scale (one hundred being the worst), Spokane rated eighty-nine as America's drunkest cities.

It's coming...

Here's a little Civics 101 to lay on ya:

We live in a representative republic. We do not live in a democracy. Look it up. Our government has never been a democracy. Where people ever got that idea remains a mystery.

I'll drink to that! Last I checked it was still legal to get drunk.

Good, because San Diego came in at number eighty-four. Nothing like that old six pack of "liquid courage" to get one through the day.

But back to the topic at hand. Joe McCarthy was a fine manager in the Major Leagues. He won seven World Series and was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 1957. I don't know why every one was giving him such grief about the Mitchell Report.

What number did the Dallas-Ft. Worth metroplex rate in this survey?

Okay, I found out the real story. Dallas-Ft. Worth came in at #27 (with #1 being the drunkest). San Diego was not in the top 35. Seattle is only #13 on the list, not 11.

Here are a few highlights:

<ol>1. Milwaukee
12. San Antonio
18. Houston
23. Los Angeles
32. New York
33. Miami</ol>

Looks like I need to start working a little harder.

Our representative republic IS a democracy.

Take a refresher course by reading On Democracy in America by Alexis de Tocqueville

Uh, no it's not. This is just one of many articles on the subject. This is just a small part of one:

From David N. Mayer

A Republic, Not a Democracy

218 years ago, on May 25, 1787, the framers of the Constitution of the United States began meeting at the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia. The debates were secret – a deliberate decision of the delegates, designed to keep them free from outside pressures. When the long, hot Philadelphia summer came to an end in mid-September, as the delegates were wrapping up their work and about to reveal to the public their proposed Constitution, it was said that someone asked the oldest delegate, Benjamin Franklin, what kind of government the nation would have. Franklin’s response has become famous, an important part of U.S. historical lore: “A republic, if you can keep it.”

Franklin’s comment came to my mind last month, when I read about President Bush’s trip to eastern Europe. Bush spoke glowingly of the progress of “democracy” in many of the nations formerly under Soviet Russian tyranny. Yet, like other American presidents in the modern era – and indeed, like most commentators on political or cultural matters – he erroneously described the American system of government as a “democracy,” or the United States as a nation based on “democratic” principles. It’s a common error, but one that shows how far out of touch most modern Americans are with the principles of their nation’s founding.

The United States of America is not a democracy. Let me emphasize that – THE UNITED STATES IS NOT A DEMOCRACY – and add, “Thank God!” America’s Founders understood well the evils of democracy and deliberated created a system of government that was not democratic but rather republican. The form of government in the United States (both the national government and the government of each of the 50 states) is not a democracy but a republic. Indeed, it is most accurately described as a “limited-government constitutional republic.”

The difference is not merely semantic. The word “republic” comes from the Latin phrase res publica, which means, literally, “the public thing(s).” It generally refers to a representative form of government, one in which the people’s representatives (chosen either directly or indirectly by them) govern but not the people themselves. (Such was the form of government, in theory at least, of the ancient Roman republic.) “Democracy,” on the other hand, is derived from the Greek words demos and kratein, which when combined mean, loosely, “the people rule.” Democracy thus is synonymous with direct rule by the people, or more accurately, by a majority of the people.

James Madison explained the difference between a democracy and a republic in two of the essays he wrote for The Federalist Papers. In No. 14, he distinguished the two this way: “In a democracy, the people meet and exercise the government in person; in a republic, they assemble and administer it by their representatives and agents,” he wrote. “A democracy, consequently, will be confined to a small spot. A republic may be extended over a large region.” In No. 39, while seeking to determine “the distinctive characters of the republican form,” Madison wrote that the term has been misapplied by many political writers.

It is a distinction so trivial that it is pointless to argue.


de·moc·ra·cy [di-mok-ruh-see]
–noun, plural -cies.
1. government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
2. a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies.
3. a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.
4. political or social equality; democratic spirit.
5. the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.


You can go on splitting hairs if you want.
But to deny the US is a democracy is rather silly.

Not a student of government, I see.

While you may consider the misuse of a term by a 19th century racist French social engineer as gospel, I prefer to quote the U.S. Constitution:

Article IV

Section 4.

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

Not trivial nor is it splitting hairs. It is making a clear distinction. You must be using a very liberal "new age" dictionary if it says that the U.S. is a democracy.

Here is more for you to ponder:

America is a republic - not a democracy!

Not only did our Founding Fathers establish a republic, they greatly feared democracy. James Madison, known as the father of the U.S. Constitution, wrote in "Essay #10" of The Federalist Papers: "... democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths."

Although such an attitude will surprise most Americans, it is accurate.

The United States Constitution does not contain the word democracy. It does "guarantee to every State in this Union a republican form of government...." Also, when we recite the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag, we say, "to the Republic for which it stands," and not "to the Democracy."

The difference between a republic and a democracy was once widely understood in America. The U.S. War Department (superseded by the Department of Defense) taught that difference in a training manual (No. 2000-25) published on November 30, 1928. This official U.S. government document, used at the time for the training of American military personnel, said of democracy:

A government of the masses.

Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of 'direct' expression.

Results in mobocracy.

Attitude toward property is communistic - negating property rights.

Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether it be based upon deliberation

or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences.

Results in demogogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy."

It went on to state: "Our Constitutional fathers, familiar with the strength and weakness of both autocracy and democracy, with fixed principles definitely in mind, defined a representative republican form of government. They 'made a very marked distinction between a republic and a democracy and said repeatedly and emphatically that they had founded a republic.' "

Don't be deceived. America is a republic - not a democracy!

I think this pretty much clearly shows a huge difference between the two terms.