Would you have dumped him?
 

Speaking only at the youth level...........


Thrown Helmet


Tim.

Not a Chance.

Just frustration because it looked like he MAY have been safe.

Naah.

(Assuming no other negative circumstances, such as an earlier warning. And what kind of playing surface was that?)

The throw must have been soft, because in one frame it appears that the ball is going to beat the runner, but he did look safe.

That clip is what is wrong with youth sports.

When I played, the coach would not be slapping me on the back congratulating me etc. for throwing both my helmet and hat. I would be sitting the bench and running laps after the game. The umpire would not have to do anything.

Coaches wonder why they get the name "rat" and the aforementioned clip is a prime example.

In youth sports the kid should be "dumped" in a heartbeat. After you dump him then for all practical purposes you will dump the coach who is condoing such behavior.

I am not one for "following" kids etc. so if he goes in the dugout and puts on a "tantrum" I couldn't care less but when he does what this kid did in front of "the whole world" to see then you need to dump him otherwise the umpiring crew could start to lose control over the game.

Pete Booth

No it's more than frustration.

You cannot see the BU on the video, but look at the clip again. The kid turns around, sees the BU make the OUT call and then goes ballistic and you are going to "take that" The kid was showing up the BU.

It's similar to a batter drawing a line after the PU calls a strike on the outside corner.

Pete Booth

Question, Pete......or anyone....

In the sports that I do...football and basketball....we are allowed to penalize crap like that from participants through walking off 15 yards or handing out technical fouls. These are basically also a warning that someone better clean up their act...or else. Is there anything similar that could be adapted to <i>beisbol</i>?

I remember Gary Sheffield getting tossed for throwing his helmet down in "frustration" when CB Buckner called him out at first base when he was still with the yankees...I'm sure some "grown up" words were involved as well, but regardless, this is youth ball, unacceptable, launched helmet and hat against the screen. Done.

*edited for a typo*

The nature of baseball doesn't seem to lend itself well to intermediate penalties such as football or basketball. Fed has the dugout restriction but that's about it.

I think any other devised penalties would change to game too much.

I still don't think I'd have tossed that kid, but it may be because I'm from the era when the coaches took care of those things. I remember well at age 13 hitting a line drive that an infielder speared and subsequently throwing my bat in frustration, and I was chewed out by the coach (and my parents that evening). But it wasn't an issue for the umpire.

So the coaches in the clip did not handle it well. Did the kid learn anything? Yes—throw your helmet again when you don't like the call.

IIRC, MLB has issued a statement saying actions such as Sheffield's would warrant an automatic ejection. You've got to be looking hard to eject people for that little action. JMHO.

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I probably would not eject a player if that was the first action of that type by that player or a teammate. I might have a word with a coach but not if that is all the kid the first time. His reaction was spontaneous and he did not continue to complain. Ejections should be "no doubters" if that is the first action.

Also as a multiple sports official, I try not to just eject on the first bad action anyway.

Peace

In a heartbeat, and without hesitation.


What's wrong with you guys, getting soft in your old age?

In my area we are instructed that this is a mandatory ejection. This includes throwing any equipment.

there's a big diffeerence between throwing your bat in frustration, and throwing your bat in frustration over an umpire's call.

Yep.

Not only did he throw his helmet agains the fence in an obvious reaction to the umpire's call, he f0llwed that with throwing his hat.

I don't work little boy ball, but I always see those who do post that this is a "learning league." In that regard, this young man has something to learn: his behavior is unacceptable and the proper consequence is an ejection.

This works for coaches who go a little over the top, not for players. You either eject, or you don't. I see we have some umps that are "trigger happy".

"Elephant hunters" at kiddie ball. Rat is such an ugly word.

This is an easy ejection!

Any coach that condones a youth player throwing equipment over an umpire's call is a rat.

And the kid will learn from his ejection.

Have you had an ejection yet?


Tim.

Not today, but the day ain't over yet........:rolleyes:

WOW

I have to admit my original thought was to call the police and have the kid hauled off to jail for assaulting city property but I figured 15 years to life just might not be harsh enough penalty.

Mabey we should just take the kidd out back and put a bullet to his head, that will fix his ***.

I usually officiated by the simple rule that "No body came to watch me" but, its quite obvious that I am in the minority.

You guys have got to be shting me. Do you go home and beat the wife and kids into a blivy for not talking the right way to you also?

GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSES

This is a game, if you think your dictorial method of officiating is going to teach this kidd anything. YOU ARE SOOOOOOOOOO WRONG.

The only message you are sending is it is ok to blow things out of proportion and be a hardass.

While your on your high horse also go out and yell at your partner for blowing the call and embarrase the hell out of him.

Heck, he has got to learn some how and being the great teacher out there, why not take care of all the problems at one time.:confused: :rolleyes:

You might want to try switching to decaf.

This is the first time I've seen an umpire whine as much as a coach.

Properly ejecting a player, as in this instance, has nothing to do with who the fans are looking at, it has to do with doing your job so someone else doesn't have to.

Your post leans toward the old bullsh!t about the best umpire being the invisible umpire. What utter nonsense. Sometimes doing your job make you visible.

get off your rocking horse and do your job.

I specifically posed the question for a youth game for a reason. In an upper level game (college and above) I don't see where a reaction like this would warrant an ejection. But for HS on down this is a no brainer to me.

I'm surprised that you'd allow a player at this level to throw sh1t while still on the field and not run him, jice. Allowing him to do this without an ejection just leaves a mess for the next crew working one of his games to clean up.


Tim.

it's a pretty easy ej in pro ball, tim. short ej report, too, which is always nice.

During my visit to Arizona this summer I saw Matt toss a runner who threw his helmet down on home plate after Matt called him out on a tag by the catcher about three feet up the third baseline.

Matt's comment to me was the same as yours..."Easy ejection, short report."

Even if he was frustrated, he can not throw two pieces of equipment and stay in the game. Easy ej. Most players ejected are due to frustration. I have ejected none for being overly happy.:)

I think we get ourselves in trouble when we have this black and white, all or nothing philosophies on these kinds of things. I am sure I would likely eject, but some other things my change my opinion. Is the coach taking care of it immediately? Did the player say anything to me directly after or before he throws his helmet? Was this kid a problem during other parts of the game? I like to let players and coaches hang themselves to the point I throw them. Maybe it is the football and basketball official in me but I like the fact I can warn before I have to file paper work.

What the crew did before is irrelevant to me and what the crew will do behind me is irrelevant. I will not likely be around at all so that is not something I am going to concern myself with. I am only concerned with my standards for that game and that might change based on a lot of other factors I will not list right now.

Peace

I'm going to retract my statement about dumping him in a heartbeat. I would have given a coach about 1.5 seconds to react to his helmet toss. If the coach want to jump him before I get a chance, so be it. One point five seconds is his window of opportunity to do so. That didn't happen in this situation, so out he goes.

"Coach, are you going to handle that or shall I?"

And that is the jukes of my philosophy. If that player turned to me immediately and started yelling, now he is mine. ;)

Peace

So bobbybanaduck says ejection at pro ball. You disagree. You say throw sh!t on the field, you're outta here. But throw it all over the dugout, you can stay. If something likes this gets your dander up, you must lose focus very easily when working the dish if player, coach or fan slightly gets on your strike zone. Game management skills seem to be lacking.

Just leaves a mess for the next crew working one of his games to clean up. That's the stupidest excuse used to justify an unjust ejection besides teach him a lesson. Ejections need a better reason than this.

Well yesterdays gone. We're here today. Tomorrow hold no guarantees.

If you know you blew a call, sometimes you just need to eat a little chese with the rats.

BigUmp56 - I specifically posed the question for a youth game for a reason. In an upper level game (college and above) I don't see where a reaction like this would warrant an ejection. But for HS on down this is a no brainer to me.

Hmmm....I WOULD dump this kid - very quickly - and hope that his coach would deal with him as well. I would also expect a visit from the coach, and if he made his point professionally I'd let him talk a little longer than usual IF I thought there was a chance I'd blown the call.
As for the higher levels - you bet I'd dump the player. HE should know better than to put on that kind of show. And his coach would be on my a$$ for missing the call AND on HIS a$$ for taking himself out of the game.

JJ

Thanks for your response, Bobby. The reason I said I didn't think this would warrant an ejection in a college or professional game is because I've seen similar situations in single A games where the crew simply ignored the player.


I'm not sure what this might have to do with a spectator giving me a hard time and my losing focus easily. I'll take into consideration what a supposedly experienced umpire who's never had an ejection.............ever, has to say about my game management skills and do my best to do the polar opposite of his advice. What happens in the dugouts is not my concern unless I feel it's going to spill over onto the field.


Tim.

After a FULL cup of regular coffee, I'll just say we will have to agree to disagree here.

This was not pro ball, so that argument has NOTHING to do with.

I will stick with my original answer though and move on, no ejection.

Why do some umpires allow this kind of behavior?

I won't allow children to show me up. Never, ever, ever.

And any coach who defends his children showing up an umpire can keep the child company on the bus.

i see the relevance.

you've got to understand that A ball is good for watching some things, and not so good for watching other things. mechanics, positioning, hustle, and things of that nature can be helpful to watch. game management and situations, however...i would say that as often as not you might be able to learn what not to do rather than what to do. these guys are getting their first taste of arguments and ejections. that kind of crap doesn't happen often in the roast, so they don't have much experience. but that is what A ball is for; learning. learn by doing it right, learn by doing it wrong. whatever. just learn.

This is the very problem I have with many baseball umpires. You would never be able to work basketball or football if every time someone said something to you if there was an ejection on the spot. This is not the pros. Pro players and coaches know what is coming and that is why they know what to do and say to get ejected. I really wish we would get that pro mentality out of even college to LL ball.

Peace

What gives you the idea I've never had an ejection? Have you ever worked or seen me work? We all know what happens when you assume. Making stuff up is for little kids. I'm sure you're one of those umpires that has to eject because you can't help from becoming confrontational yourself. Don't tell me you haven't. You fit the prototype very nicely, I must say.

And what happens in the dugout is no concern to you unless it going to spill out into the field? They charging the mound and brawling in your games? Careful you don't get bit on the ankle by one of those little buggers.

Stick to the scenario, Jeff. This isn't an issue of somebody saying something. This is a player throwing equipment, TWICE, in disgust over an officials call.

I had this happen in basketball, and it was an easy call. Player threw his equipment bag in disgust at my partner's call. Real easy call.

As a former coach, far be it from me to agree with you guys, generally. In this case, however, I'd let the helmet go (pushed off his head impulsively), but the thrown hat would seal the deal. The consequence should be the same in this situation, whether imposed by coach or umpire.

So would you eject someone every time they show disgust? I would think not. That is why I said this was not "automatic" for me. ;)

Throwing an equipment bag and jumping around in disgust are two different things. A player had to go get the equipment bag in basketball because the last time I checked they do not run around with one. And if last night I got upset over every time a player showed disgust with a call that was made or not made, we would not have had any players to play. Showing disgust is not all I am looking for just because I called something. I see it much more in other sports and we do not even penalize them. We say something to the coach or the coach immediately handles it, we take note of it but that does not mean it is automatically an ejection.

Peace

From what I saw, it didn't look like the player threw his equipment to show up the umpire. It was more out of frustration. Tossing the player would acknowledge the fact that the umpire made a bad call and that the player was throwing his helmet over the call, not his frustration. Now if he glares at the umpire and combines that with throwing of equipment, he's gone. Same goes if he says anything. Now the equipment throwing conveys disrespect, not just frustration.

I also didn't perceive the coach's action as condoning the player's behaviour. He got his player under control, probably told him that even umpires are human, and maybe even told him not to throw equipment or make a big scene. Would it have been more acceptable for him to go up to the umpire and chew him out for making what was clearly a bad call? If I'm an umpire in that situation, I would rather the coach quickly get his player to the bench and move on with things rather than giving me grief for missing an obvious safe call.

Well, I did ask you earlier today if you'd had an ejection yet and you said no. I just assumed you were telling the truth. My bad...............

And if tossing a player for throwing equipment on the field makes me confrontational, count me as confrontational every day of the week and twice on Sundays.


Tim.

This is easy. He removed his helmet on the playing field. His team is getting a warning. He threw the hemet against the fence, his team is getting a warning and he gets to watch the rest of the game from the bench. The thrown hat sealed the deal.

No ejection if the player catches the thrown equipment before it hits the ground.

Yes, your judgment is bad...........

Thanks for proving my point by not answering a very simple direct question.

That's so true. When I watch HS basketball, I can't for the life of me understand why the officials let the coaches talk to them like that. They drop "You...." in the first 30 seconds of every game. Me, I'd hike up my polyester black slacks and toss anyone who'd yell at me like that. If all hardwood officials had the balls to do so they wouldn't be in the state they're in. Although I'll be honest with you, the first time some pencilnecked basketball coach said "you're horrible" with those beet red faces they get, an ejection would be the least of his troubles. I guess that's why I'll never be a ref. Don't talk to me any differently than you would at the grocery store.

Honestly, I don't know how you guys do it.

My first instinct was to say no. The helmet and hat disposal was away from the action and, not being a mind reader, could have been dissapointment in making an out. There seemed to be nothing said to either umpire. No one came out to argue what appeared to be a missed call. The sound of the ball hitting the mitt is clearly after the batter-runner had past first base.

More thought, which I wouldn't have had time for, leads me toward a yes vote. We've got rules support for an EJ here. He clearly "deliberately threw...his helmet" (and hat) which NFHS 3-3-1m says calls for an ejection without warning. It is undoubtedly an unsportsmanlike act under any code. Regardless of the reason for the equipment throw, it's not a proper way to react.

This play is why we get paid. Even though the defense clearly got away with one, I would expect the defensive coach to come out and argue why the batter-runner wasn't ejected. He may have had one of his kids ejected for the very same thing. It's actually protestable under NFHS law. Are you going to say BR did NOT intentionally throw his helmet?

D

Alright Mr. Never Ejected Anyone, I'll answer your very simple-minded direct question. Oh, which one of the four do you want answered? I will guess that you meant the first of the four questions you asked Tim: How do we know you've never had an ejection?

The answer is that you have told us before that you have never ejected anyone, you have been asked periodically over the past 2 years if that has changed, and you have never responded in the affirmative to our very simple direct questions. No, not once.

So, clown, you have never ejected anyone and therefore still have not been doing your job properly, like I told you 2 years ago.

Amen! He threw it in protest of the umpire's call which SHOULD be an ejection at all levels.

Now, if he was out by a good bit and threw it down in frustration at himself (and it's obviously at himself) i may give him a warning since it obviously wasn't thrown in protest of my call.

OK. I was keeping my big rat mouth shut up until this bit of "logic".

If the play was close it was an obvious reaction to the call but if it wasn't close it was obviously not?

Just how much experience do you have managing kids baseball?

Now, I'm just more confused.

I'm curious, for all who say "I would dump him" are you assuming you are BU or PU? I am assuming everyone is taking the perspective of the BU, who made the call.

If you are the PU would you toss if your partner, who made this call, did not?

Why would the reaction be toward my call if it was obvious he was out? I don't understand your confusion...

could i just toss my partner?

I'm ejecting on this one. Automatic. Although I do like what Ozzy said.

I use to warn first, eject second. I have learned that warnings mean nothing to the kids.

Self control of your emotions is part of becoming a man. These boys need to learn that you don't get away with displays like that. If the coaches don't discipline then the umpire must.

Pony ball rules (18-E-4) states: Players who intentionally throw bats or protective head gear shall be ejected from the game.

You must have an ejection every game if you do not like people yelling at you. I see more coaches in baseball yelling and screaming and acting like a maniac then basketball coaches ever do. Coaches whine more than anything. Being a wing official on a football crew would really get you all bent of shape.

Peace

I assume you are speaking from PU perspective as your partner is the one who pooched this call...

I am a football varsity white hat and a varsity basketball official. In Illinois as well as Wisconsin.

I would whack the kid in basketball and would throw a 15-yard USC in football.

In baseball, the player gets ejected. C'est la vie. Different sports, different punishments.

I do not have baseball coaches acting like maniac in my games and I instruct my wings to not take unsportsmanlike conduct in football, even on Friday nights. My wings threw 3 USC flags this season, all on assistant coaches.

It's prep sports, for crying out loud. If coaches want to act like Earl Weaver or Jerry Glanville on the field at that level, we'll be happy to get rid of them, if needed.

No. I've averaged about one EJ per season. I guess coaches just know that can't yell at me. YMMV, but I just don't allow it and let the guys know about up front.

Or maybe I'm just getting more calls right than you are ;):D

Don't assume that <b>all</b> basketball officials take crap. You would be very wrong.

If the coaches know that you'll take care of bidness, they're usually smart enough to leave you alone. Usually. The ones that don't need to disappear.

They know who they can go after and who they can't. In my experience, that holds true for all sports.

I realize we all have our own tolerance level, but how much "crap" do you put up with in your games.

Are you going to allow some snot nose kid to draw a line after you call a pitch a strike on the outside corner and he objects to it?

You can agree to disagree but how do you keep control in your games if tolerate such nonsense.

Look at the clip again. We cannot see the BU but IMO we have indistbutable eveidence that the kid turned around, looked at the BU and then through his helmet and hat in DISGUST at the call. It was not frustration.

Then we have the coach condoning this behavior by slapping his player on the back and basically saying "atta boy"

Pete Booth

I finally got a chance to watch the video.

Ejection.

The kid (and coaches) have a right to be mad, but he (they) also have to learn the correct way to express it.

Unfortunately baseball does not have a "team suffering" penalty as does basketball and football other then ejection.

Also, for the most part I think most organizations have an automatic one game suspension to try and clean-up the league.

If it's one of the "stud" players then the team will suffer, but if it's a marginal player then for the most part the team will not suffer.

It would be nice to get an extra out for a "personal foul" in baseball. I know us umpires wouldn't complain.

Pete Booth

Ejection. Depends. Has stuff like this been going on for the entire game? Was it frustration with the call a or frustration directed at himself. I may or may not.

Good questions Pete however, when the tough games were scheduled as far as problem teams, my phone was the one that rang.

My games are NEVER out of control and I don't need to go on the field with a whip and an attitude. Maybe my years of doing Ice Hockey have given me a more relaxed way of handleing situations but I did not see this as a kid showing up an official. I also thought the coach was trying to calm the kid down and handleing the situation but, as always, being there may have been a different scenario.

As part of our training for Ice Hockey, we are taught to call the penalties that have an effect on the control and outcome of the game, and maybe overlook those that don't. It depends on flow, previous interaction and sometimes just experience or one's confidence in hisself to be able to reel that game in at any given second.

So this is baseball, not hockey! What has already been implied here is that, if this was another incident in a problem game it could result in an ejection. easily. I took it for what it was worth.

IMO, I don't need to show everyone all the time who their DADDY IS during the game because I KNOW I am. MY confidence of my skills and ability will always handle the game and I try to find ways to keep people playing.

I know others deal differently with this and that is their perogative however, I will go up against the best anytime an have complete confidence in what I do and know the outcome will be decided by the teams on a fair, level and controlled playing field.

It's hard for you to imagine people acting like this on your field, then. Me too.

I was serious when I said that I simply don't tolerate this kind of behavior. Then again, the odds of me kicking one this badly are only infinitesimally greater than zero. Hard for me to put myself in this place. But the kid's second expression of disgust would be pretty hard for me to ignore, whether on the plate or the bases.

So what you are saying is that there may be a holding, tripping, boarding, etc somewhere away from the play and you can pass on it because it doesn't effect the control and outcome of the game? What about the power play you are not giving the offended team? Everything that happens on the ice (field, court, pitch, etc) plays a role in the outcome of the game. I am not advocating OOO, but who are you to decide what effects, or doesn't, the outcome of the game.

In football (for example), calling a holding penalty when the run is going the other direction and the person held has no chance to become involved is considered bad officiating.

However, that has nothing to do with unsportsmanlike conduct and bad behavior, so I'm not sure why it's in THIS thread.

[QUOTE=RichMSN]In football (for example), calling a holding penalty when the run is going the other direction and the person held has no chance to become involved is considered bad officiating.

However, that has nothing to do with unsportsmanlike conduct and bad behavior, so I'm not sure why it's in THIS thread.[/B]

Sorry about that.

When I go out and buy your book, "Baseball Officiating by RichMSN," I will skip the chapter on game control because, wellll, your just "not sure."

Just an opinion.
 

Remember I was not the person that was complaining about being yelled at. You do not see me complaining or talking about how hard it is to deal with on a basketball court. It is definitely a different atmosphere but I know that many good basketball officials are not always finding ways to eject people, which I think is a major flaw of baseball umpires. Good basketball officials know how to deal with players in coaches in a way that no one is aware someone has been reprimanded.

Peace

Jeff,

How is a baseball official going to reprimand a player without it being noticed? I don't really care how this kind of situation is handled in a basketball game.


Tim.

Actually Tim, there are several methods one can use during baseball.

Checking a dirty ball.
Going over the lineup with the coach standing next to you.
Going over to the dugout with the lineup card in hand.
A simple "Time, coach you will handle that problem there correct, thank you."
Dusting the plate while having a discussion with the batter or catcher.

There are many more other creative ways also.

[QUOTE=jicecone]Ignoring playing action fouls has nothing to do with penalizing USC. It's like me comparing ignoring obstruction to ejecting the kid on this play.

And the last part of it is personal, stupid, and I thought, beneath you. But I was wrong.

Tim,

Jicecone pretty much summed it up with his list. There are many ways to send a message or and those things have worked for me for years. I also do not care what you think we do in other sports; I am just making an observation as to why umpires seem so eager to eject the slightest objection to your "authoritaaaaaa!!!" And is the reason that from the pro level all the way down umpires are motives are almost always questioned when there is a reasonable ejection. Instead of letting the actions be clear to everyone, you allow minor disagreements cause a player to be ejected when we can give other adults to handle the situation. I can tell you the ejections I have had in the last several years; they went without much of a disagreement as to why they were done by anyone watching.

Peace

[QUOTE=RichMSN]I apologize if you took it personal however my point was that it is relavant.

How individual officials handle every facet of any game may not always be the same but, if the outcome is a fair and controlled event, then does it matter how the cat got skinned. JMO