A Two-fer
 

I was just sitting around icing my knee and getting a little bored. So, (forgive me) I wandered over to YouTube and saw these two clips of missed ejections.

Besides the PU failing to toss the pitcher, what do you think of his partner's actions?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyRNXI7R6gA&NR=1

The second is just a gutless umpire. The interesting thing is that he seems to have an ABUA patch on his pullover. Judging from his performance, he got it for joining up and getting the insurance, not from attending a clinic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7N263od3mk&NR=1

i'll call the second guy and see what the deal was. knowing what i know of this guy i can pretty much guarantee the coach had either already been dumped or was after the video cut out...

I watched both videos several times just to make sure I took in all the action.

Video #1: I can't believe the PU did not run the pitcher for leaving the mound, making a Capital A out of himself, pointing at the plate and addressing the umpire with total disrespect. The pitch did look pretty good, but that is totally irrelevant as we all miss one once in a while.

The partner was equally bashful. Why is he getting in the middle of the PU's business? "Ok, break it up boys!" What kind of BS is that? Getting the other players away from the confrontation was good, but he should have limited his actions to keeping extra personnel away from the action.

Overall it was horrible game management. I would have run the pitcher by the time he got halfway to the plate and then would have run any coach or manager who dared disagree with that decision.

Video #2: I disagree slightly with Bobby's assessment here. If he was already run, why did the umpire continue to allow a dialog. Once I run someone, they don't follow me around hollering at me, they leave. That is when the partner should step in and escort the ejected coach away from the other umpire. In the first video, the BU came in too soon and butted in where he wasn't asked. In #2 the BU should have herded an ejected coach away. This leads me to believe that the coach had not yet been dumped. JMO.

Forgive you for what? Were watching something else than ball? :D


PU watched R3 X th eplat, good. Then he should have calmly ejected F1. Thats' a given.

To follow F1, allowing the coach to become the hero by stepping in between (good job Coach), was a major boo-boo.

PU didn't miss the call, up and in, LHP to LHB, on a 3 ball count with loaded, sorry, ain't gonna get it.

A competent umpre would have taken a deeep breath, made sure R3 touches, all Rs reach their bases, and with little overt action, ejected F1. If Coach isn't out of the dugout, then with "T" in place, he would inform Coach his LHP is showering.

fit, what's an eplat and the "T?" :confused:

What I was hinting at was how he (BU) actually shoved the PU away from the coach and towards home.

He wouldn't be a partner of mine again.

Isn't that Greek for "an umpire who tosses a pitcher halfway to the plate while runners are advancing might have an ego issue that matches his poor choice of timing an ejection"? ;)

In the first video, I'm warning the pitcher to get back on the mound, I mean I am yelling at him, and if he continues, he's gone. As for the second video, when that manager gets into my face in an attempt to belittle me, he's outta there.

HTBT to hear what that pitcher may have said but for sure he's gone once he drew the line on the plate. He's most likely gone before he gets to me as I would have warned him to return back to his position once he came at me. Base guy should have never pushed the plate guy. Maybe plate guy was a young rookie and base guy was an old veteran.

I've got nothing to add to what's already been said regarding the first video.

As for the second one, I would like to see what happened that has the coach so pissed off. I know that if I really blow a call, I am expecting to take some heat for it and *may* let a coach vent a little more before taking action.


It appears that an ejection is warranted here based soley on what we see in the video, but I would like some context to the situation.

You don't have to take your eyes off of the play to give the good old heave-ho signal, Walter. The runners were just trotting on the ball four award anyway.


Tim.

It looks to me like F1's complaint had something to do with the batter stepping into the pitch based on where he slammed his glove into the plate. I'm not sure why he thought that made a difference.

In a league ball pre-season clinic last spring, we had one of the local association trainers (Fed ball association) showing us the preferred mechanic for his association for stepping in between a coach and a fellow umpire after the ejection. The mechanic he recommended was to escort the ejector away from the ejectee so as not to escalate the situation.

This situation illustrates why this is not a good idea, and reinforces my thinking that the trainer was just plain wrong (and proves most of you guys right, from previous posts on how to deal with these situations.) By facing his fellow umpire and pushing him away, it gives the impression to everyone on the field that the umpire was the agressor. Now, in this situation, HP was one of the agressors, but BU's actions drew more attention to this fact.

Canada, I would rethink yelling at F1. Yelling or following F1 back to the mound will both make you look like the agressor, and a warning to get back to the mound is not warranted in this situation, IMO.

Good God, where does one start with this one?

Pitcher? Gone. Before reaching the plate.

Manager? Gone. He's got to go for coming out and taking over the pitcher's argument.

I can't tell if the BU came in because he figured that the PU was never going to get rid of the manager or what. But I can picture some of the umpires near where I live doing just this.

The play is live. If you interrupt potential defensive actions, or offensive reactions, with an ejection, and I'm either coach, you got a real problem coming.

Me. Regardless of the the idiot pitcher who most certainly needed an ejection. At the appropriate time.

This is an ole Memphis/Atlanta baseball stunt. LHP, LHB, he's in for one B, let P get tossed inappropriately, who cares if he sits. Get everyone riled up including PU and have him become the cener of attention, emotions up, team up.

Not saying this was the case in the video but sophisticated baseball game managers know this manuever by heart. So you learn to make ejections at the right time, in the right way.

F1, gone then or later? On tantrum start? With no "T"? you just screwed the pooch, you've been had. Then you toss the coach after you chased his pitcher down? You forced his hand, he had to come out on you, you're chasing his teenaged pitcher down like some crazed ape.

Who knows what you'll do next, you've already blown the ejection. :rolleyes:

off-topic, but did anyone see this in the side panel of any of the other umpiring videos on youtube? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdL0FEp3zhE
i thought that was kind of funny

If you are the coach that comes out, I doubt I would have any real problem. I would simply dump you right away also. I would not let it bother me to dump the pitcher, watch the remaining action until it was all over, then call Time (not a "T" technical foul), then calmly dump the manager when he comes out. I don't know any good umpires that would "get riled up" when ejecting someone. That's why we get paid the big bucks, to stay calm while others are losing it. I get downright peaceful just before I pull the trigger intentionally in order to keep my cool.

I don't know who taught you that the ball must be dead in order to eject someone, but they lied to you. Ejections during live action are quite commonplace and done at all levels of baseball.

You seem to think we are all a bunch of hayseeds who have never worked any classy, sophisticated baseball before, but you are certainly mistaken on that account.

This Rock don't Roll
 

It could have been worse.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI_v3k43pVo&NR=1

There's nothing to interrupt while issuing the ejection and watching continuing action at the same time. The only problem I see with one of the coaches coming out to ***** about the timing of the ejection is the additional pen to paper time I'll have to endure while writing my ejection report. That shouldn't take more than a minute of my time and less than a tenth of a cent for ink, so I won't be too torn up about it.................


Tim.

If you couldn't eject during playing action, hen they wouldn't have the statement in the rules about the ejection not becoming effective until the end of playing action.

Eject when the action occurs.

Who needs time? He came down to the plate ranting and raving. He'd be gone before reaching me. Teenager, adult, whatever. Ejection is effective at the end of playing action. Besides, in high enough level baseball, I'm happy to call time after a walk before watching everyone advance a base.

The manager would get one question: Who's the sub? If anything other than a substitute was given, the manager would go, too. I don't accept a manager tolerating or encouraging that kind of behavior from players.

Dear Moderator, thanks for deleting my post. God knows what we'd do without heavy-handed moderation.

As for the second video. . .
 

I believe that umpire is a current MiLB umpire. I forwarded the video on to a MiLB umpire in my area to see his opinion, and he offered me that information. I wonder what the umpire schools would say about the handling of this situation? If he's this scared of an amatuer coach like we deal with on a daily basis, how does he deal with it in Pro ball?

Thinking back on ejections I have done, I agree, a high majority were when the ball was live.

What I don't understand is why you don't have this guy on your ignore list.

Bob, what's the hurry? What is gained by interfering with play by ejecting while the ball is live if the player is allowed to continue in the play?

It is an association wide rule of ours. The only reason we can see to eject prior to the end of the play is that it satisfies the official's need to express his anger, or to make a bravado display of sort. IOW, it doesn't serve the game, the officials or the teams any value.

I confess, I peek.:)

Didn't you make the rules? You are the boss there, right?

That is a load of bovine manure.

PU in 'Pissed Pitcher" vid is the gutless one. At least BU went over and kept F2 & F1 away. His herding of the PU reminded me of a MLB crew chief doing that not too long ago....
The rat that came out would have needed his car keys immediately as would [the former] F1.

Other vid shows an [IMO] inexperienced Official. Wandering around and following the rat shows inexperience. The rat, even if tossed, won that one. That guy seriously lost his temper, probably long before this tirade.

IMHO:cool:

there's no "hurry", but ejecting when the act occurs can help prevent further ejections (from others getting involved) and help stop the claim that you were "talked into it" by the team not committing the act.

Well, good for your association. But, that's not the norm, and I haven't seen the need for such a rule.

Another one for "the list".

Heh heh, I peek at his posts too. I can't hep maself. I been hyp-mo-tized!:)

Like this?

"Blues, Coach X and his team, they talked you into that ejection.!"
"Coach Z, I ejected your player for <whatever>."
"Why did you wait so long then?'
"I didn't wait any longer than was required to finish the play."
"What?, Why wait?"
Coach, if I eject while the ball is live, I could influence play. Simple as that."

Point being, the ejected player is no less guilty, no less ejected whether you potentialy disrupt play withj a live ball ejection or you wait until there is no chance you are going to disrutp play.

All association rules are subject to vote unless thay are contractual.

You're not serious, you kill the ball on walks?

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by fitump56
The play is live. If you interrupt potential defensive actions, or offensive reactions, with an ejection, and I'm either coach, you got a real problem coming.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
:eek: If there is nothing to interrrupt, then please define
'continuing action"???

ok

I have no clue what all that above meant, Timothy. But I do want to comment on your asking if I thought you were an inexperienced umpire. Sure do; the 90' game is not one you can stand the test of experience.

I don't know, Donovan, but it sure seems to me that allowing a pitcher to continue to throw a tantrum on the field is much more detrimental to the game than issuing an ejection during playing action. The players whose games I work aren't the stooges you'd have them to be. They continue playing until "time" is called. Must be a mens league thing.........


Well, gee, Donovan, I don't recall asking what you thought of my experience. Truth is I'm all torn up that you'd insinuate I'm not experienced. I may not work drunken men's league games like you're so fond of working, but I manage to stumble through real games anyway. Maybe someday I'll reach that pinnacle of umpiring you've set for the forum.


Tim.

Yes.

um, yea, mr "Donovan"....time forthe board to chalk up another swingnamiss from you on umpiring :rolleyes:

Huh? You can't influence a play when you eject someone while the ball's live or a play's going on. I've done it, and never has a problem resulted. There have been a few times where a fielder or runner was too stupid to keep arguing while I ignored them to continue my job during the play, but that's not my fault; they're the stupid ones.

Ejecting someone in the middle of a play is not as uncommon as one may think, and it is something permissible under the rules.

I personally never had any problem whatsoever ejecting participants during live action. I also never missed any of the action nor did I interrupt any potential defensive or offensive plays in the process.

I found it quite easy to holler "You're gone!" without removing my focus from the play at hand. I would suggest if anyone has a problem doing this during a live ball that that person is not much of an umpire.

Any umpire worth his hot dog and a Coke should be able to handle ejecting while the play is still proceeding.

I apply my own reasonableness standard. You'll notice that in professional baseball they won't make anyone wait until all the runners have advanced.

What I do works just fine for me.

That not calling Time until the batter-runner reaches first base is highly overrated. It is done all the time in pro ball and is traditionaly done when a manager wants Time to talk to his pitcher. Ball Four...Time Blue?...Time!...BR is 5 feet down the line...Forced runners jogging to their next base.

Now before you go off here, I'm not talking about a passed ball or wild pitch or any other scenario in which a runner might gain an extra base on the play. I'm just talking about routine Ball Four. The catcher either has the ball or has returned it safely to the pitcher. Time can then be granted. I always got a kick out of umpires who say to coaches, "No coach, I can't call Time until he gets to first base." Where is that written in the rules?

And
 

I am with Rich . . . many times I have allowed a coach to enter the field as the BR was walking towards first. Time is out at that time.

And I have ejected during a play and just allowed the play to continue and completed the ejection at plays end.

These are two very simple and common occurances.

Regards,

youll also note umpires swapping baseballs thathit the dirt w catchers while a batter--runner is going to first on a walk and time is clearly "Called" for that too.

Indeed, which is why I'm surprised by the opposition to it.

The pitch that preceeded F1's outburst was a strike. The bad call allowed a run to score. I would have been "pissed" too. But F1 should have been ejected. Both umpires in these videos need a few clinics and aren't ready for the level of youth ball they're working.

Consider the source.

This happened in a D-III NCAA game in spring 2006:

I'm on the bases with nobody on and the score tied between two archrivals. The visiting team's batter raps a long fly down the right field line that ends up going out for a dinger. Well, as I turned to take the ball and the call, I hear behind me something erupt--a bunch of abnormal screaming and trash talking. As I finished my duties and have turned back toward the field to go back to my "A" position, I find out that the batter, after smacking the dinger, waited at home plate and flipped his bat at the pitcher, with the bat landing near the mound. The batter apparently had also said something to the pitcher while doing this. My partner working the plate, who was an MiLB ump working some spring ball for me, immediately tossed the batter.

Next, the home team's head coach comes to my partner trying to convince him that the home run doesn't count because the guy was ejected. The head coach doesn't win his argument, so he comes to me saying, "Randy, you're the crew chief. You've got to do something." I replied, "We did. The guy was ejected and we'll forward the report to your A.D. and the conference commissioner." "But he was ejected. You can't count the home run!" he maintains. "Oh? Then what would you like me to do with his at-bat? Create an out? Forget he ever existed? Sorry, Brian, but by rule, the home run counts and the ejection takes effect after he scores."

Brian walked away thoroughly confused but none too happy.

Prediction:

A misunderstanding, myopic straw grasper will see this as evidence as to why the ejection should have waited for the batter to reach home instead of proper mechanics.

I'll second that.

I think it the first video the umpire looks like he kicked the poop out of something. His body language I mean.

The second video well how could he not run that pitcher??? I think the base guy could have run that guy if the plate guy didnt.

It seems from your description that you watched the videos in reverse order.

Motion carries!

I guess I missed the voting.

great idea if you want a riot on the in-field!

Just to clarify, a home run is a four base award and the ball is dead.

True, but the action was still ongoing. Let's say the batter smacked an extra-base hit and did the same thing. No difference in outcome, if you ask me.

His last name wouldn't have been Baldea, would it? Nice guy.

JJ

No, although I agree with you about Mr. Baldea. I've never had a problem with him, and he's always been calm and courteous with me.

You just have to make the ball dead, run his butt off the field, and replace him on the bases with his substitute.

Fifty cents in one hand. Half a dollar in the other for all practical purposes.

It's spelt "Mr.Donovan", in case you didn't learn that in grade 3.

When I was in 3rd grade they told us you needed a space between the Mr. and Donovan.

I love when people correct typos with typos. It warms my heart.

Maybe it's different in Canada, but I have never put a space between the period and the last name. Only at the beginning of a new sentence.

just cause you do it donesnt make it right-wittle buddy.

That's because there is no space between My and Space on his MySpace account.:)

Hey all,

That's because all the free space is between his ears!:D

LomUmp:cool:

You're correct, Steve, Deej is way off the mark. An umpire can enforce "Time" while the ball is live if he so chooses.

Huh? No you don't. You let the play continue, even though he's been ejected. When continuous action ends, you then call "time" and replace him with a substitute. The ejection actually takes effect when the play's over.

One more time.

Scenario 1.

Batter is ejected for throwing his bat at the pitcher after hitting a home run.
Player is ejected. Player completes home run trot. Player is retired to the clubhouse for the rest of the contest.
Umpire doesnt need to make the ball dead in this scenario. No call of "Time" is necessary.
Batter may advance without liability to be put out.

Scenario 2.

Batter is ejected for throwing his bat at the pitcher after hitting single/double/triple.
Player is ejected. Player reaches base that he has legally attained.
Defense can still make play on runner.
Umpire calls "Time" and makes ball dead. Ejected player is removed from base.
Ejected player's substitute replaces him on base.
Ejected player is retired to the clubhouse for the rest of the contest.

Scenario 1. Ball becomes dead on it's own.
Scenario 2. Ball becomes dead when umpire calls "Time" at the end of continuing action.

The only difference I was pointing out. No big whoop.

Sure can and as we see in this thread, they often do.

Not one of them would last the scrutiny of the coaches one DH where we come from. You'll notice this, there is a significant amount of lack of coaching expeeince on the Forum. And coaches who are expereinced, who really understand the game and how to work umpires to get calls.

I kep wondering and wondering where a lot fo these guys were coming from with their posts and it took a hile *duh* to figure ot.

Were we lucky to have East Cobb, Tony Gagliano, Ross Grimsley and the Frayser F***s, Bobby Tucker, Bobby Kilpatrick, Crone from CBHS, God, how many more were there?

You showed up for there ballgames calling "T" whenever you liked, you got your a** handed to you.

All day long.

Just to clarify, a home run is a four base award and the ball is dead.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

:confused:
I am sure you see it that way. It has finaly dawned on me, you don't have a clue between a live ball and a dead ball.

To be clear, it is Donovan J. Hammond, Jr. There seems to be a keen interest in my name and Walter's these days.

Almost entirely from people who claim we are on their "Ignore list." LOL

What group this is. when they aren't lying, they're, er, lying. :rolleyes: They aren't working, that's fr damn sure.

Pig's eye it was.

Who coached you, Messr. Mickey Mouse? Did you notice the other 3 Rs? They got there by inane umpiring?That you would have had three balls to get to Number 4? Then, of course, you wanto to get "pissed" on a ball, at it's extreme, in that sitch, is a strike.

Pissed. For walking they guy in, you should have been pissed at yourself.

No comment, it's obviously waay over your head.

Sorry, but no, it's not different in Canada. You've simply been doing it wrong.

Mr. is an abbreviation and as such requires both the period AND the space.

Don't insult my intelligence, Son. I know more about that and umpiring than your pompous @ss will ever know.

Yet another clueless wonder to add to my ignore list.

*sigh*

That's not the way your OP was written. I'm quite aware when the ball becomes dead. Absent a specific rule like it becoming dead when it clears the fence on a home run, it becomes dead when I call "time."

An oxymoron if ever I've seen one, hey.


Tim.

For all you smart people that know more than I do, open up Microsoft Word. Go to "Languages" and set it to "English (U.S.)". Type in "Mr.Smith". There will be a red line under it indicating that the word is spelled correctly. Now put a space between the period and the "S". Tada! It is now spelt correctly. Now change the language to "English (Canada)". Type in "Mr.Smith". No underline! Hence in Canada, we don't put a space between the title and the last name of a person.

By the way, I use Facebook. If anybody wants to add me just shoot me a private message.

But, isn't Donovan the first name in this particular instance?

I may not know much, but I do know that "spelt" is a wheat product. It's not a proper way to describe the past tense of "spelling." And I'm sorry, Canaump, but there's only one King's English.


Tim.

1. I performed your experiment and it did not work as you suggested. In fact, the program highlighted Mr.Smith as being in error in English(Canadian)

Perhaps the version of Word may have something to do with it.

2. A friend who teaches in Surrey, BC advises that a space is put betweem Mr. and the last name of the person.

3. Here is a sample business letter written by a Canadian concern: http://www.miningwatch.ca/index.php?...one_submission

Note the space between Mr. and Jennings.

So you're saying everyone talks like Elvis?

Think I'll go fix me a fried peanut butter and Snickers sandwich, Mama...:D

Can't argue with you on those points.