Released
 

It seems that the idea of female umpires in professional baseball just isn't going to work out. I know that they put everything into doing a good job, but if you are not going to be accepted then what's the sense?

That's pretty hypocritical of you, considering you claimed that the personal characteristics of the umpire have nothing to do with how successful that umpire is.

It appeared pessimistic to me, rather than hypocritical.

Maybe both?

Accepted as a female, maybe, but not as an umpire, Rich. From talking to guys who worked with her or who knew her work in general, I heard she just wasn't a good umpire. Her gender notwithstanding, she simply wasn't that good. Many believe she got as far as she did because of her gender.

Interesting. If there was an opening she could have been in Triple A this past season. This season her evaluations were such that she ends up being released. This seems odd. Top of the heap and then out the door in the course of a season. Perhaps MLB didn't want to make a decision concerning her.

Gordon
 

"Top of the heap and then out the door in the course of a season."

At the mid-season rankings she was listed in the bottom half of the AA umpires. Her base work was always a major issue at every level she worked.

I have no idea if gender was a help or a hinderence in the career path.

The article also states that she is not sure if she will take the decision to court. I have heard that issue was already discussed with the MILB administrators and she was not going to pursue things.

Of course things can always change.

Regards,

I have no personal knowledge of Ria's comptence as an umpire. If she was not a good umpire then she does not deserve to advance. However, as I mentioned before, I believe she was given the same respect and treatment as her male partners by players and coaches. Even a bad umpire can be "accepeted."

the article is misleading. she wasn't ranked at the top, she was at the "top of the heap" because everybody that was ranked higher than her had already been promoted. yes, had there been one more promotion prior to the mid-season rankings it would have been her, but there wasn't. the rankings came out and she dropped due to not-so-great evals. not sure how the end of the season went, but there was only one more eval after the mid season rank, as opposed to two that resulted in the drop in rank.

you can believe whatever you want, but that's not the truth.

Indeed they can change, Tee. I wouldn't be surprised to see a lawsuit filed claiming discrimination based on gender. How long till we see Gloria Alred jump on this bandwagon?

I only write what have read, and or heard. If it is "not the truth" and you know otherwise, why not enlighten us? What is the truth?

you will be enlightened when her book comes out. i only had a small taste of it as i was only on her crew after we returned from the strike until she went home with a concussion (which was legit, she got smoked and it knocked her into last month...) about 5 weeks in.

for two small examples, a catcher who will remain nameless asked me two nights after she got smoked by a passed ball, "did you see me let that one get her the other night?" that, among other things he was doing that pissed me off, led to a pretty heated discussion between he and i that lasted for the duration of the game. i was not conspicuous about how i felt and it brought the manager out between innings to see what we had going on. hopefully he learned something from it cuz he was called up and started shortly thereafter, and he he's going to be a regular starter in the bigs soon.

the second was a DH that got dumped then spit his gum at her and screamed, "you don't belong here, we know it and you know it."

I can understand how this all comes to play. We have two females in our HS association. I helped train them and worked many games with them. I let them get their balls busted and came to their defense as needed (just as I would with any other partner). However, I never allowed anyone to run up their back side just because they were "and easy target". It was a bit of a struggle but they were accepted as equals in the association. I think that after five years, they even have the respect from most of the Varsity coaches now.

So this is what I was referring to in my earlier post. I personally have no problem working with a female partner. As a matter of fact, these two women are more competent than some of the "old farts" in our association. Now, when these same women tried to join up into another association for Summer ball, they were not welcomed at all. They paid their dues (monetary) but were only assigned LL Minors games together. They were not welcome to the post game bull-sessions or even the meetings.

When they explained what was going on, I advised them to finish out the season (only a few weeks left), take the pay and not return. I then got them into a Summer association that welcomed them with open arms doing 90" diamond work only.

Hyprocritical? No, it is called being practical when I say "if you are accepted, fine. But if you are not (and that seems to be the way pro-baseball is about women), why fight an already lost battle?"

Regards

It's important to remember that umpires get released from MiLB every year. Often times, especially at AA and AAA, it's hard to figure out why. I was talking with an umpire in my area this year who got released in 2004 after working many MLB games and the number of those games had increased annually. He still has no idea why he was released and he said that he could never get a straight answer out of any of his evaluators. Bottom line is that MiLB umpires serve with short term contracts and the potential is always there for a release.

Lawrence

And you didn't dump him? I'd have ejected him for admitting that and included the information on my report to the league office so they could deal with it further.

I was just thinking the exact same thing. Great minds work alike I guess. :)

Indeed. ;)

what i did was far more effective than an ejection. the term "ate his ***" is the best i can do to describe it. he finally figured it out in the 8th inning and we had a decent conversation about it. also, there's no way PBUC would have supported such an ejection, and it probably would have gotten me fired.

I agree with Bobby, ejecting in this case would be like ejecting somebody for saying, "Hey, I called so and so a MF'er last week". It's unfortunate that an F2 would do that to anyone, but the place and time for the EJ is when the infraction occurs.

Calling one an MFer and putting one in physical jeopardy are far different, guys. Sorry, but there's no way you can compare the two.

If any player were to ever admit he did something intentional to get my partner harmed, he's done; and the report will explain it all.

PBUC's not gonna fire you over it. Knowing Fitz like I do, I don't believe for a minute he'd ever criticize you for ejecting a player who told you he intentionally let your partner get injured.

Such actions are reprehensible, contemptible, and totally unacceptable!

TK,

If any of that is remotely true, that is very sad. We have a long time to go if people are systematically doing things to prevent from certain individuals based on gender or other factors out of their control from moving up. It is one thing is she just could not cut it. It is quite another to do things to hold a person down based on her gender.

Peace

tkaufman
 

"In fact, I believe I heard that it was #17."

I was told #21. And, as I am sure you know, there were more problems than the two you listed.

Regards,

Which takes precedence? Change the natures of the individuals in the system, the culture, to be fair to accommodate the legal and moral requirements of access to job opportunities for all?

Or say "Screw It", we are not in the business of equality, requiring our employees to act under the social good?

Indeed there were, Tee. Indeed there were. ;)

Got that right.

Pam Postema was a warrior and paved ground that made Ria's life much more manageable. I hope she sues b/c it will be the only way to find out if she was dumped b/c she was a woman.

Wow, what a bunch of lousy ingrates, riddled with Old Guardness and living in the 19th century.

How proud their mothers, sisters, aunts and female cousins must be. :rolleyes:

What a bunch of illogical crap. If she has no evidence of illegal gender discrimination, then she mustn't sue. One doesn't sue to find out if something was wrong; rather, one sues because something was wrong.

Get off your soapbox, Ms. Alred. Just because the only female umpire was released doesn't mean there was illegal discrimination.

Sometimes the only way to find out if something is wrong is if you do indeed file suit. Even then you can be right and lose or you can be wrong and win.:eek: :eek:

If Ria believes something was wrong, let her get an investigator or let her dig around herself and try to find out. Filing a lawsuit when one has no foundation on which to base said suit is just another waste of the judicial system's time.

Perhaps Ria can't afford to hire a PI. This shouldn't prevent her from filing. Would you requirw this of a homeless person who was wronged in some way?:confused:

And hiring a lawyer to sue is free? Get real. An attorney is going to be more expensive than hiring a P.I.

And your homeless analogy is equally as illogical. How's a homeless person going to afford an attorney to sue, huh?

You betcha. If said person wants to sue, it's HIS responsibility to pay for said suit and its accompanying costs! There exists no right that says he's entitled to free legal representation.

Actually there is exactly that, it is called contingency. It costs nothing to sue someone claiming personal injury (be it an actual physical injury or other). The fees are paid AFTER a settlement,and are a percentage of it. If there is no settlement, there are no attorney fees. With all that being said, a suit will not let everyone know anything resembling the truth, the terms of the settlement will be protected, and everyone will be jubject to a gag order. So, if she does sue, it will just fuel the fire for more people who don't know anything to speculate more.



edited for grammar

Make believe
 

What are the odds the catcher who let her get drilled ends up in the lawsuit, if there ever was one, to make the emotional argument turn in her favor?

Okay perhaps, there is never going to be a lawsuit there. How about a movie to follow that book deal? The ball is in her "court" now.

i never told her that he said that

Wrong. There is not "exactly that." It's not that at all. It's NOT a right; and contingencies are not free. Money must still be expended regardless of the outcome. Because of the risk, attorneys' fees are usually higher in such cases.

Again, no one has a right to legal representation in a lawsuit. You're on your own financially or otherwise.

But that could always come out in discovery. I'd love to be in on the deposition on that one!

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by fitump56
I hope she sues b/c it will be the only way to find out if she was dumped b/c she was a woman.

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One word, look it up. The legal definition of:

D-I-S-C-O-V-E-R-Y

You mean Ria doesn't know how to read an umpire forum?:confused:

Originally Posted by fitump56
I hope she sues b/c it will be the only way to find out if she was dumped b/c she was a woman.

Which part of "find out" did you set in your concrete head as "guilty of discrimination"?

Your circular (il)logic is amusing.

Get off your soapbox already, Ms. Alred.

I don't think she would get very far if she sued them for discrimination. The judge would rule that her dismissal is a judgement call on the part of her supervisor.

I am NOT commenting directly on Ria's situation; I never saw her work, so I have no opinion.

However, if it is true (as has been suggested above in this thread) that there are still some in baseball who think that a woman cannot umpire on the professional or MLB level...then I think they are clueless.

If a woman can run up-and-down the court for 48 minutes with the big boys in the NBA and develop into a playoff referee...then a woman can certainly umpire.

Frankly, the physical demands of umpiring are a lot less than refereeing, in my opinion. Sure, you may have to rotate a few times a game...but that, generally, requires running 90-feet. The NBA refs go up-and-down for 48 minutes...with a lot of quick starts and stops and changes of directions. (And yes, I'm aware of the physical demands of calling balls and strikes.)

I have always thought officiating baseball is more mentally demanding than officiating basketball. (Although, I'll admit the highest level I've ever worked in basketball is high school varsity (and y'all know I'm a former MiLBer).) And I for one am not going to say that a person cannot handle the mental rigor of baseball...just because she's a woman.

And let's be frank: a woman ref in the NBA is going to hear (and, no doubt, has heard) the same frank language on the court that any MLB umpire is going hear on the field.

I believe Ria has a degree in engineering from Rice University. If you ask me, she's about to get a huge raise with better benefits and working conditions.

About time to put that education to work for her.

Plus, basketball has the WNBA and women's college basketball to draw female officials. Would any of us want to see an ASA umpire working MLB or MiLB games? Doubtful. Men's and women's basketball are LIGHT YEARS more similar than baseball and softball are.

According to her bio, Ria has a degree in education. If that's the case, it won't be much of a raise.

I fail to see the analogy here. I didn't read of anybody wanting softball umpires working MiLB games. The minors are similar to WNBA and college basketball in comparison the MLB and NBA. Nobody was making the leap in logic all the way to ASA sofball (or any softball for that matter), which of course is nothing like baseball.

For what it's worth, I was a big supporter of Pam Postema when she was making here bid to be the first female MLB umpire. She was very good. I have not followed Ria Cortesio's career closely, but I understand that Ria Cortesio is no Pam Postema.

Originally Posted by fitump56
I hope she sues b/c it will be the only way to find out if she was dumped b/c she was a woman.

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by UMP25
Get off your soapbox, Ms. Alred. *Just because the only female umpire was released doesn't mean there was illegal discrimination.*


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Which part of "find out" did you set in your concrete head as "guilty of discrimination"?
<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->As I knew to be the case, you took my support of Ria and he right to pursue leagal action as a guilty verdict against MiLB/MLB ball. All your left with is the inane , diversionary comment; you want to align me with a liberal activist, Alred.

It's not working, the more you distort ridiculously my position, the worse you look. Beats trying to defend your macho, discrimanatory Old Guard BS so I ceratianly understand why you choose to move the goal posts rather than defend your 19th century bigotry toward women in the work place.

As I said before, sure bet you Mother, Aunts, sisters, female cousins and grandmother are button popping proud of you. :rolleyes:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by fitump56
I hope she sues b/c it will be the only way to find out if she was dumped b/c she was a woman.

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One word, look it up. The legal definition of:

D-I-S-C-O-V-E-R-Y
Expund as to why it is and why it is illogical to expect that only through thr process of discovery will she have a chance at the truth.

Over to you.

As usual, you misconstrue what someone here says. Unlike you, who automatically ***umed some kind of discrimination, which is just illogical and stupid--but I digress--I simply said if she believes she was the victim of illegal discrimination, let her gather the facts first then take it to the proper venue. A trip to the EEO might suffice. I never said she shouldn't umpire because she's a woman, or that females ought not to be professional umpires. You inferred that in order to remain on your ridiculous soapbox, one that you love to use all too often around here, unfortunately.

As a matter of fact, they are, and many of them are rather liberal, too. In fact, it was my mother who, when she found out about Ria, said to me, "Women shouldn't be umpiring anyway." And this from a rather feminist woman, too.

And BTW, regarding "discovery," I know very well what it means in terms of legal definitions. I've been involved in it on both ends of the table. It does NOT mean go to court and sue based on no facts or evidence, conduct discovery to find out information, then hopefully win/settle. It means to hopefully find out information that can add to or confirm what is already known. Sure, there are attorneys who will encourage filing a lawsuit with not an ounce of evidence, but these are the ones who do so solely because they wish to rack up fees from their clients. A good attorney will tell someone not to sue unless you've got some solid evidence of a wrongdoing. Discovery enables one to bolster such evidence in order to be likelier to win.

The argument was that women CAN succeed in pro sports, as evidenced by Violet Palmer. I'm saying that there is a much better chance for a woman to succeed in basketball because there is a legitimate female equivalent to men's basketball at every level. I know there is softball out there, but it's almost an entirely different sport from baseball. I'm saying that a woman succeeding in baseball will be much more difficult than it was in the NBA because a woman needs to literally break into baseball; she can't move from softball to baseball and back, unlike a woman theoretically could in basketball.

It may not be worth much
 

But I believe that eventually, probably in my lifetime, there will be a woman on the full-time MLB staff. Ditto for the NFL (even though they aren't full-time, but you get my drift). Not as sure about the NHL, but I don't see why not. Some woman will make it through all the hoops and meet all the "objective" criteria and she will make it. And bully for her.

As with most pioneers, doing something for the first time as a woman/African American/Native American/child/senior citizen/whatever takes a combination of the right person in the right circumstances. Pioneering is hard work. Ria didn't completely break new ground; as pointed out several times on this board, Pam Postema (and to some extent, Bernice Gera before her) did whole lot of that work.

I think there are many people on this board, me included, who have known released umpires and wonder what the hell PBUC was thinking when they released. I don't know Ria so I can't say that for her, but I have known it of other umpires.

The ways of the PBUC are not yours to understand, Grasshopper. They are yours to accept.

I wish Ria the best. If she wants to continue to umpire, I sincerely hope some college association takes a good, hard, serious look at her. I imagine she'd be an asset to most conferences and associations.

I do not see a woman making it to either the NFL or MLB anytime soon because of just lack of numbers. You do not see many women even trying HS ball let alone going through the process to become an official at those levels. I cannot speak for the NHL because I know nothing about hockey. But as macho as folks want to make that sport out to be, I do not see it happening in that sport either. The NBA at least had an environment and a system that crosses genders for the officials. The NFL, MLB and NHL have no similar systems and really give female officials opportunities beyond the normal scope of things. It could happen, but that female official would have to be exceptional and have the support by those that make the decisions. And the way things go with MLB that support is obviously not there. I think we will see another female in the NBA long before the first female ever works and NFL and certainly MLB. At least the NFL fires officials on their staff every year. MLB seems to not ever get rid of their staff for any reason.

Peace

What are the rules on getting released in pro ball? and If she was the only one released than I would say she has a case

How many do they let go each year Was there anyone else? who?

I hope you have lot's of $$$! I suspect I'm not the only one needing a new keyboard.

Very nice post, thanks for it. A well deserved plug for Bernice Gera.

There are no rules on getting released in pro ball. They hand you a pink slip and say "Don't show up tomorrow". They don't tell you why you are being released.
JJ

Indeed, John. To those who bemoan the way pro ball handles its people, I say: "That's life. No one said it would be easy--or fair."

Why did she say so? Do you agree?

Since you are privy to the interrogative process, you also know that you are required by law under oath, with direct and significant penalties if you are not truthful, to answer all questions without the aid of an attorney. How is this anything close to the non-interrogatory process? It is not, information gathered outside of legal discovery is nothing more than hearsay, opinion and social jibber-jabber. This information has no underlying penalty for truthfulness. Mr. Ump, you know this as your experiences with legal discovery could not possibly have missed this, no, no possibility at all.

Ria must press suit to be entitled to discovery.

Then you knew this, why the argument? :confused:
[/QUOTE]

Slightly, but not enough so that the criminal procedures courses in law schools around the country would be significantly different.

Yes, but
 

Almost every sex discrimination suit will be pressed in Federal court, so the Federal rules of discovery would apply. The interpretations of those rules vary somewhat from Circuit to Circuit, but by and large they are the same on most major issues.

Shelly Berman in Boston Legal.

Poopycock.

Does anyone remember his list of Cleans and Dirtys?:)

Sure. Two I can think of right away:

Tarzan walking with Jane is a Clean; Tarzan swinging with Jane is a Dirty.
The Beginning is a Clean; The End is a Dirty.

One is a Clean; Number One is a Dirty.

I remember them from the party album he did with Jerry Stiller and Anne Meara. My friend and I wore that record out. For some reason, Shelly Berman tickled us pink.