What to do?
 

I saw this while waiting for my game to begin. R3 one out. Flyball to F8 who catches and throws to try to get the tagging(?) runner. After the play, defensive coach instructs F1 to throw to F5. F5 steps on the base. This is where it gets interesting. BU points to PU while PU points to BU. PU then realizes that this was his call and signals "safe". Defensive coach questions the play, but of course it stands. What would you have done as BU in this situation where you know that your partner was not watching what he was supposed to be watching?

:confused: Assuming a two umpire system (you did not specify) the tag up at 3B is indeed the PU's responsiblity. That being said, I would never 'point' at my partner. Who did the offence look to? Again I am assuming that they looked to the BU.
As the BU - knowing that it was not my call (as I was watching the catch/no catch by F8) at best, when my partner made no call, I would call time to consult with him. I would then remind him that it was his call and let him make it. Now if he did not see the runner leave early, then he has to call it Safe. He would also have to deal with the Manager (Rat) if it was an obviouis blown call. Of course, as any good partner would, I would be there to support him.
Bet he doesn't make that boo boo again!:)

For the sake of keeping our partnership from looking like idiots, I'd call safe. Then I'd discuss with partner asap (even if that means one of the dreaded between-inning talks), and partner buys the beer afterward.

As BU you have no choice but standing by the call your partner makes because you shouldn't have been looking at third base.

You only call an out when you SEE an out, in this case, neither umpire saw the violation so the runner is safe.

i would pick up the nearest rock and throw it at him. hard.

I would hesitate to allow time for my partner to do or say something, when he did not, I wouldn't hang him out, I would made the call, loudly, as if it were mine. If a coach came out complaining it was not my call, I would tell him I was making it.

Afterward, in the dressing room or parking lot, I'd kick my partner in the balls.

This is why I advocate when you know an appeal is coming to just give a little point to your partner or give him an indication you got it.

Of course this is PUs, but there are some instances with multiple runners where this little trick can be handy.

Very subtly, while coach is yelling APPEAL APPEAL APPEAL! just give a little point as your hands are by your side to let your partner know its his.

And still kick him in the balls after the game.

I have one partner that I work with very frequently. When we are on the dish and this arises, we will yell to BU "I've got the tag." Of course we know PU is supposed to have the tag, but it emphasizes the point and it lets the Rats know who to ask (which has nothing to do with why we say it).

In this sitch (forgetting what I just said) - as BU I think I would tell the coach that his is not my call (if he's asking me directly). If it's just a live ball appeal, which this seems to be, I'd wait for PU to make it; then if he gave no indication, I'd make the call - then we'd have to have a talk about it. Of course, I'd give him time to catch his breath after kicking him in the balls.

Ouch!!!!
 

I'm sure glad I don't have to work with you guys. Y'all like to kick the balls too much!!:p :D

:eek:

Don't think I want to work with them either!!
If I was the one who booted the call....would not want to get kicked there!
Would not be suprised if my partner put me on the 'do not assign' list.....because if this kind of thing happened often I certainly would do it to some one else!!!:p

just for the record, i never said i would kick him in the balls. just wanted that to be clear.

I had this happen to me in a Legion game where I was the BU. As already stated here, I am watching for catch/no catch and PU has tag of R3, just as discussed in pre-game. (Sometimes I swear, it does no good to have a pre-game if your partner just nods his head and then does whatever. That is probably where I should have kicked him and woke him up.)

Coach comes out and appeals tag and my DEAR partner points to me. Well about all I could say for sure was that the runner crossed the plate and tagged it. Thats it. Walked over to my partner and politly asked him what he saw, "nothing" was his answer. Great. Thats two of us.

Being the senior guy I went over to the coach and said he could either start yelling now or accept the fact that neither of us saw the tag and therefore R3is safe.

Coach said "I can't believe this crap", turned around and walked back to the dugout. I wasn't as nice to my partner after the game as the coach was to us.

I don't want any rocks hitting me either!!! :)

Safe, if no one saw it.

I guess if I am working with these guys I get my ball bag off in a hurry, throw it down on the ground and let them kick it all over the parking lot. After they are done I pick up the balls, give them back to the home team's coach and tell him thanks. :D

Walked over to my partner and politly asked him what he saw, "nothing" was his answer. Great. Thats two of us.

Being the senior guy I went over to the coach and said he could either start yelling now or accept the fact that neither of us saw the tag and therefore R3is safe.

Coach said "I can't believe this crap", turned around and walked back to the dugout. I wasn't as nice to my partner after the game as the coach was to us.[/QUOTE]
#1 Why would you ever walk over to the coach and tell him start yelling.... neither one of us saw the tag ???????????????

#2 It is my understanding that in most areas, the PU is the UIC, being the more senior as far as I know doesn't supersede anything.

#3 After you "walked" over to your partner, HE should have signaled safe perhaps with some sort of a verbal " runners safe on the appeal" and resume the game.

It appears to me that you took a situation that isn't all that uncommon and made it worse. If anyone needs to be denutted, it wasn't the PU

The coach is always going to direct this toward the BU - even if it's the PU's call. Most coaches don't know umpire mechanics. They don't know, nor really care, whose call it is. They just want somebody to agree with them and call the runner out.

If the call gets redirected to the PU, as it should, the coach is probably going to want the BU to give his opinion should the PU not give the ruling he wants. You can take that to the bank, especially at the lower levels of play.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

At lower levels the coach will go fishing for an umpire who agrees with him. At higher levels the coach knows who has this call.

Oh yeah and when you tell them that you aren't going to over-rule, now the umps are playing the "Cheatin' Game.:confused:

#1 Why would you ever walk over to the coach and tell him start yelling.... neither one of us saw the tag ???????????????

#2 It is my understanding that in most areas, the PU is the UIC, being the more senior as far as I know doesn't supersede anything.

#3 After you "walked" over to your partner, HE should have signaled safe perhaps with some sort of a verbal " runners safe on the appeal" and resume the game.

It appears to me that you took a situation that isn't all that uncommon and made it worse. If anyone needs to be denutted, it wasn't the PU[/QUOTE]

1.First of all, knowing how to umpire, knowing the rules and knowing how to deal with coaches are 3 different subjects. It difused the situation and the ended the discussion. If you choose to try and hide the fact that you both just screwed up all the time, then go for it and argue all day long.

2.Well in my area, titles don't mean anything when the ship is sinking. You are a team out there and when one looks bad, you both look bad. The UIC screwed up and was trying to dump it on me. I took charge and put and end to it. That is called "game mangement" not, lets see who we can blame now.

3. Shoud of, could of, but it didn't happen that way so I stepped in.

4. As far as "making it worse," your entitled to your opinion.

Maybe the coach knows whose call it is, maybe not. If I'm BU and my partner comes to me for a routine appeal of a tag-up at 3B, I'm going to call time and confer with him. I'm going to keep the coach away, and I'm going to tell him that it's his call and he needs to make it.

If the coach wants to whine that my partner missed something, maybe he has a point - but I'm neither going to show up my partner, make his call for him, nor deal with the coach for my partner's missed call.

And all this will take 45 seconds, so holding up the game is not a significant issue here.

Like it or not, you are already involved because your partner has come to you.

Your choice: Throw him back to the wolves or resolve the matter.

There have been times that letting your partner get an earful from the coach is a good learning tool, this was not one of them and I did what had to be done.

Less than 45 seconds.

I don't understand how your involvement in this situation has now put you in charge of the situation.
You conference, you have nothing, he has nothing and it's his call to make. Very simple and undisputed mechanics.

How can you possibly consider letting UIC make his call as throwing him to the wolves?
It's actually much worse than throwing him to the wolves, you effectively emasculated him.

It's always a good learning tool, it's called consequences of actions!
Negative consequences tends to deter behavior which results in such consequences.
Getting an "earful from the coach" comes with the territory when you screw up. If UIC asked for you to fight his battle you may have mentioned it in your OP, important info, and everyone would agree that UIC needs to grow some before they can be kicked.
If UIC did not ask for your help in managing this call then I agree with a previous post that you're the one that screwed up by usurping your authority.

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[/QUOTE]

"Original Thread:
What would you have done as BU in this situation where you know that your partner was not watching what he was supposed to be watching?"

I related a situation that happened to me, as experience. If it helps someone fine, if not they are free to take your advice (which I have not seen yet) or no advise at all.

Protocol or not, we happen to work as a team here, the fact that you have to get in a frenzy about your title out on that field shows me where your coming from.

This happen to work in this situation and I have been around long enough to understand when or not to use it. With or without you approval.

Thankyou.

Reminds me of a situation where I was working alone with runners on 2nd and 3rd and 1 out. Sharp line drive hit to left centre field so I run up the 3rd baseline to watch the tag up of runner at third, F7 comes in and makes a diving catch. F7 rolls on the ground comes up with the ball and throws home, I quickly look at 2nd and see the runner about 2 steps off second running to third. Hussle home to make the safe call at home, turn and make another safe call at third.

Defense then appeals first the runner at third (call safe) and then second(another safe). When the defensive manager comes out to discuss the call, I stop him and tell him, "Coach, on that play here are my priorities:
1) Did the fielder make the catch? I have to wait until he has clear possession AND voluntary release of the ball.
2) Did the runner at third base leave BEFORE the ball was TOUCHED by F7?
3) Did the runner at secondbase leave BEFORE the ball was TOUCHED by F7?
4) Get into position to make any safe/out calls on the bases.

Your left fielder make a heck of a diving catch. I saw F7 touch the ball and quickly confirmed the runner at third was still touching third base, then I had to wait until f7 completed his roll on the ground before confirming the catch. Then I looked at second and saw the runner there was a couple of steps off second running to third. Am I 100% positive the runner at second tagged up? No. But am I 100% certain that he didn't? No. As a result I have to call him safe."

I know generally speaking you wait to hear exactly what the coach is appealing but in this situation I felt that the best thing to do was completely explain my responsibilities on the play and it worked perfectly because all he said was "Sounds good to me." and went back to the bench.

I don't have any problem with what you said, but I think it's still best to wait until the coach speaks.

Case in point. I had a game in which R3 non-maliciouolsy ran into F2 waiting to make a play at the plate. FED rules, so I had interference and an out, but no ejection. After discussing the play with both coaches, and telling both assistants to STFU (nicely), the game went on.

Next day, I had one of the teams again, and I called a balk on the pitcher. The head coach comes out and as he does, I mentally rehearse what I want to say about the balk. The coach gets close and says, "I just want you to know that you made a great call yesterday on that collision and handled the situation well." Then he turned and walked away.

My advice was to let the umpire who's responsible for the call make the call.

I'm not sure you know where I'm coming from. I called him UIC because you didn't give his name and that would be his title.
And I'd feel the same way if UIC made a call that was the responsibility of the BU. Either way it's wrong for many reasons.

Just two questions
1. When you use this technique is it with or without the permission of your partner?

2. In a similar sitch, would you ever allow your partner to make the call and have to deal with the coach if the call was your responsibility?

1.This is not a technique, it is called experience. Having worked the league and previous games with that coach and also knowing the experience of my partner it was the correct action to take for that game and that moment. Again, when a member of THE TEAM (umpires) looks bad, the entire TEAM looks bad and then it goes up the line to the assignor and association.

And believe me, it is not all about me when I am on that field.

"With or without permission?" Again experience.

2. Twenty years ago and standing there like a deer in headlights, I might have.

Today, NO.

It would be a great world out there if all you had to do was read the manuals and spend all our time online to become a good official.

Unfortunately, it just doesn't work that way in the officiating world we work in. Game management, communication skills, reading between the lines and dealing with real world situations are things that come from experience ONLY.

Good questions though?
Thank you, and I DO NOT know it all.

What are you going to tell a coach in the future when the PU makes the call and the D coach starts yelling thats the BU call , yesterday/last week/ when ever it was the BU call!!!!!!! Whats with you guys, can't you get anything right.

Never get into a debate about umpiring mechanics and whose call it is with a coach.

When a coach wants a ruling the umpires get to determine whose call it is, whether right or wrong. And even if the umpires get it wrong, that's too bad for the coach.

What - is he going to protest that the umpires aren't using proper mechanics? For all he knows, the umpires agreed, before the game, that the BU would take all tag-ups. Orthodox? Yes. Illegal? No.

I wouldn't allow coach to talk very long about whose call it is. That's him telling you how to do your job. You might as well tell him how stupid it was to attempt to steal 3rd base, with two outs, down by 5 runs, with his #3 hitter at the plate.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

I assume that's a rhetorical question, btdt. If not, what do you tell him when he claims that was a strike the last inning, or that was interference yesterday or that wasn't a balk last week?

This is not a major problem. Coaches whine. I've learned to expect it and live with it. If they eventually prove that they are too dumb to know when to stop, they get to whine from the parking lot.

For the sake of consistency I have to say something.
This forum is chock full of posts referring to other umpires and smittys that make bad interps, have bad game management skills or generally make incorrect or bad decisions and the folks on this forum are always complaining that "they" have to clean up the mess after such bad umpiring has left the wrong impression with coaches and or players. The general concenus is always that it would be nice if that didn't happen so there would be no mess to clean. This sitch is no different
I agree that in the whole scheme of things this isn't a big deal, but very little on the board is, in the whole scheme of things, however, the sitch btdt is referiing to is bad mechanics, it's not teaching the younger umpire proper responsibility, (which may encourage him to pass the buck on another ump as well) and definitely giving the coach the impression that BU makes that call(which may or may not cause a brief discussion with another crew at another time)
Frankly I'm surprised that more people haven't chimed in on this.
In this type of situation:
Can an umpire ever take another umps call, without permission, and be justified?

If after a conference, your partner went directly to the offended coach made your call and managed the resulting situation with the coach without your permission, how would you react?

Co ump,

If it will make you happy, the (ONE TIME experience) that happened to me is NOT the recommended way to handle this situation.

As a veteran, I would be offended if my partner did this to me. As a rookie, I might not know better and may or may not appreciate it.

Given the situation, where both officials fully understand recommended mechanics and their agreed upon pre-game discussion, my conversation would have been, "PU, that is your call and you have to make it." Then I would support what my partner announced.

Again, it would be great if everything that happen on the ball field could just be handled like the manual. It is just not way.

Hopefully this answers you question.

If you'll read the posts you'll see that the questions posed by the OP were answered by several of us prior to the current diversion.