It's Why We Call Them Rats......
 

During the first inning of the Ohio ~vs~ Georgia game tonight an Ohio batter fouls a ball off of his leg. After attending to his player who looked to be overreacting, the coach is heard on his mic coaching the kid on being sure to not let a fastball get by him when he gets back in the box. Umpire says it's time to get the game moving, to which coach rat responds rather rudely:

"Hey, he's hurt. I'm just checking on him!"


Tim.

Just like all coaches/players know the rules cover to cover. ;)

(If you buy that, there's a bridge over in Brooklyn I wanna sell ya :D)

" . . . who looked to be overreacting . . . "

Is that one of those famous judgement calls?


It takes two seconds on my wristwatch to say "Don't let a fastball get by you."

Get pushy (the coach's opinion - a judgement call on his end), get a "rude" response.

I've come to expect no less from you, Rich. To a rat the game management tool of keeping the game moving along is getting pushy. Unless, of course, it's his team waiting on the field for the opposing coach to get his player back in the box.


Tim.

There are two sides to every story Tim. No one has a lock on which side is correct.

I don't care how long the opposing coach takes to get his player back in the box - it gives my pitcher a breather.

Hmmm. Most coaches I know are more concerned about their pitcher keeping his rhythm intact and are pretty quick to get on the defense for BS delays.

The Rat claimed to be checking his hurt kid when, in fact, he was coaching him on his at bat. You seem to either overlook that behavior, or lying has become so common in coaching that it doesn't bother you.

Spoken like a true coach, Rich. But I'm going to move you along when you start coaching. And if you get cockey, I'm going to put you in your place. :D

But if you do an injury visit on your pitcher, now I have a rule to et you moving along if you start coaching!

And the umpire's manual dictates that I be standing there with you to make sure you are not tending to issues other than the injury. Once the conversation chagnes course, we're through and we're playing ball. If you want to keep talking to him, then we have a charged time out.

With the batter sitch mentioned - if I hear the "coaching" I'm moving you along, and if I get the "I'm checking on my player, he's hurt" comment I'm going to ask "What does not letting a fastball get by him have to do with his injury?" I see no issue with a comment as you walk away -after all it only takes two seconds - but during the injury time out, we need to be tending to the injury.

We could tell players to "get hurt" so we can come talk to them. Hey that works, fake an injury, I'll come tell PU that I'm tending to your injury and I can tell you to drag bunt down the 3BL, F5 is playing very deep. We could have a sign for that - hat = steal, chin = bunt, belt to cheek = get hurt.

I went off the deep end, but we have to draw a line somewhere or else it will get to that. Discussion leads away from the injury looks like a good line to me.

How about the rat for Maryland that kept on questioning the strike zone by asking his catcher, "where are those pitches missing? In? Out?," and then the kid shrugging his shoulders as if to say, "search me, coach. The umpire just missed them."

The real problem was that Arizona was pounding everything that was in the strike zone, so the umpire didn't have a chance to call many strikes. The rest of the pitches were off the plate, and Minnesota's manager just kept blaming the umpire 'cause his little rugrat couldn't hit the corners.

Welcome back Steve.

Thanks, good to be back.

:mad: Where's the lie Garth, did you miss this part?

an Ohio batter fouls a ball off of his leg.

Or did the kid foul the ball off his leg on purpose because he wanted the coach to come coach him?

Fouling a ball off your leg hurts. Hell, Jermaine Dye had his leg broken by such a hit. Maybe you think a 12-year old kid should "act like a man"? CRAP - he's 12.

Yet somehow, after attending to the kid, saying "Don't let the fastball by you" as you prepare to return to the dugout makes you a lying rat.

You're wrong. Tim's wrong.

watched this game--in bw catnaps

just like a rat to sneak in some 'coaching' during a injurty check--and then get snippy on TV when hes' called on it. your ratness has skewered your fairness sense mr Ives!

Rich,

I didn't see the play, but from the OP, the coach finished tending to the injury and continued to hang around as though he were tending to the injury while offering hitting advice to his player.

I believe Garth is correctly suggesting that the lie occurred when the coach moved from medic to coach, but suggested he was still a medic by saying, "Hey, he's hurt. I'm just checking on him!" The coach's statement wasn't true: He wasn't just checking on him, he was also coaching him.

No one has suggested the foul ball on the leg didn't hurt. What has been suggested is that coaches who are tending to medical issues shouldn't offer game strategy/advice regardles of how much time it takes to do so. If a coach does that he has moved from an injury time out to an offensive or defensive time out. I don't see any difference between the batter's injury and a pitcher's injury in this regard.

Just wanted to interject here that Little League rules limit the offense to one time-out per inning. So the fact that this coach was using an injury time-out as an opportunity to coach his player without taking a charged time-out gave him an unfair advantage not intended by the rules.

My Side Of The Story
 

Hey Guys

Thanks for watching. I logged on to see what yall thought about the game.

Honestly, I completely forgot about that one incident. I enjoyed the game, and really didn't reflect on much that had happened.

As for the topic of discussion, my initial concern was of course for the player's well being, as I'm sure was the coach's. I was in no hurry to resume play as long as the players health was an issue. However, as soon as the coach was convinced his player was good to go, which became obvious when he began to discuss strategy, I was as well.

The coach had his say, and was a gentleman throughout the remainder of the game.

Thanks for watching, and let me know what you see or hear that I might improve on.

It's right here:

"the coach is heard on his mic coaching the kid on being sure to not let a fastball get by him when he gets back in the box. Umpire says it's time to get the game moving, to which coach rat responds rather rudely:

"Hey, he's hurt. I'm just checking on him!"


No, saying you're still attending to the player when in fact you're coaching him makes one a lying Rat.

Only in Bizarro World and Ratlandia.

Rattus Minimus
 

This is a charged offensive timeout, pure and simple.

I realize that many of our group don't do small ball. You get one offensive conference per inning.

UNLESS, defensive coach takes a charged conference with pitcher/defense. Then offense gets a "freebie," which must end when defense ends their confab.

Off topic, I'm still waiting for one LLWS ump to correctly call INT on BR running outside of the lane. I have seen exactly one umpire hustle up the 1B line with no one on.

After 30+ years of umpiring LL, it pains me to watch the deplorable quality of umpiring in W-port.

Another aside--can LL provide these umps with flex belts? Just an idea.

Ace in CT

Eagle Eye,

So that was you working the dish, huh? I wasn't able to watch the whole game. I was flipping back and forth with the Chargers/Rams tilt. But what I saw of it, you were doing a good job back there. Good mechanics from what I can remember.

I'm just glad you aren't the guy with the weird vocals from the Texas/Minnesota game. Somebody should tell him he should change his strike/ball/foul calls. Really annoying.

If you get a chance, tell the 3rd base guy from the Arizona/Maryland game to stop calling foul on balls that tip off the catcher's glove and didn't hit the bat. That is the plate umpire's call. This caused a home run that never should have happened, as the out at third base would have ended the inning. And don't answer a catcher's request for a check swing, but wait to be asked. He overruled the PU twice that I saw.

I agree, the guy did a good job overall but, a little too loud on most of his calls, especially ball calls that were really obvious too the whole world and no announcement was necessary.

"Ballllllllllllllllll"

Again, overall a GOOD job though and kudos to him for being there.

Now for the announcers of the game, where did they get these two babaling (sp)? brooks.

OK all you hard heads.


Let's change it a bit.

Batter gets hit in the helmet by a pitch. Coach goes to check on him and walk him to 1B. As he's walking to player to 1B he says "Next time remember to duck".

Does this make it a charged offensive conference?


All opposed say "No".

All in favor - find another line of work.

I'm astonished, Rich, that an experienced coach like you seems unable to tell the difference between advice offered in passing that does not delay the game, and a charged conference. Your new case is not apposite, and tells us nothing about the OP.

You know better.

I remember this tactic from the eighth grade. When you can't win on facts, change the situation to the point of ridiculousness and position your opponent based on his answer to a previous and different situation.

Didn't work then, either.

Completely different sitch. Now you've brought in a bag of apples for a discussion about oranges.

Not only is this sitch different, but the "coaching" is different, AND Coach didn't tell the ump he's tending to an injury when indeed he's coaching batting strategy. "Get your head out of the way" isn't exactly something you go over in practice!!:rolleyes:

I'd be surprised if I didn't tell the kid to duck next time. Does that mean I'm now trying to coach when I should be umpiring? Uuuuuhhhhhh - no.

Come on, Rich! You are really straining to find an out here! :eek: Of course that comment is coaching but it is part of the injury visit. I don't think anyone but Smitty would nail you on that one!

I'm really laughing my arse off on this one, Rich!

Absolutely a judgment call. The ball hit the dirt and then bounced up hitting the kid on the side of his leg. He went down like he'd been shot for crying out loud. Consider the kid from Texas who was hit square on the nose with a thrown ball for a moment, Rich. He didn't put on the display that this kid did. It was overreacting, to be sure.


Tim.

That kid took it like a man. I was proud to see him come out for the next half-inning.

This Texas team looks like the team to beat now. I thought it was going to be Arizona, but after seeing the combination of pitching and hitting these kids from Lubbock have been doing, I may be changing horses.:cool:

I've been doing this umpiring thing for nearly two decades, Steve. I've seen some nasty injuries, but I'd never seen a player bleed so much a base and the dirt surrounding it needed to be replaced until last night. I was amazed the kid came out on the switch.

Oh, and welcome back, buddy.


Tim.

Much ado about nothing. If all he said was what was reported I pay it no attention and let the coach continue administering to the kid. You can only look like an ogre by forcing the kid back to the plate while coach is still by his side attending to him. By the way, I would never charge a conference for this, even when rules limit the number of offensive conferences. But is there a limit in LL baseball (using modified OBR)?

I think charging a conference would be going a step too far. But I also believe the plate umpire in this situation handled it well. Once the injury is no longer the focus of the delay, it's time to move the game along.

Yes, as Jim Porter noted earlier. One offensive conference per inning. It's just a simple speed-up rule.

I didn't see or hear the play, but based on the description, I don't think there was rat-like behavior, or meaningful coaching. The player has been hit by his own foul ball, he's gone down like a shot, and now the coach has ascertained that the kid is OK to continue. At this point the coach can say: " Alright little Jimmy, the time for drama is over, the game needs to go on; get in the batter's box." A good coach, however, won't refer to drama or the injury either explicitly or implicitly. The fast way to get the kid back in the box, ready to hit effectively, is to signal that it is now time to play by providing some innocuous baseball related comment. "Don't let the fast ball get by you" sounds like baseball, but it is no pearl of wisdom, and is unlikely to either help or hinder the batter. Furthermore, the coach could just as easily yell that simple advice from the dugout or coaches box--the concept doesn't require any secrecy or a conference.

With 12 year olds, talking about baseball rather than painful shins is the right way to get the game going.

The Rat behavior was when he claimed to still be checking the kid out when in fact he was done with that and was coaching him.

The Rat behavior was the lie.

Nobody is saying it was a huge thing. But it was an unnecessary thing and that, in part, is what elevates it to something worth noting.

It's almost, by definition, pathological for a coach to lie in that circumstance...completely useless.

Dave,

I didn't feel the coach saying what he did to his player was out of line. In fact, I would have expected him to say something along these lines. It was his reponse to the umpire after being told it was time to get the game going again that I take exeption to. It was rude and ratesque of him to snap back at such an innoucuous request.


Tim.

I finally found it in the old 2004 rule book I got from my son. I wouldn't charge a conference for his comment to the kid. I wouldn't have said anything to the coach either.

At what point would you interject?


Tim.

When it is apparent to me that the player is ready, has a bat in hand, and is ready to take his spot in the box, and the game is being delayed by the coach.

It is not clear to me what happened here. Was the player on the ground when the coach made the comment or did he have a bat in hand and was ready to go? In any event a 12 year old should get the benefit of the doubt while his coach is attending to him after getting hit by a pitch and if the coach slips in a brief coaching comment while the player is recovering I am not gonna say anything to the coach.

I would second that, Jim.

"Coach, that's your offensive conference for this inning." Otherwise it will happen again.
Bob

Ridiculous my butt! In both cases the coach made a "coaching" comment during an injury check.

:mad: It sure as hell is. Teaching how to avoid a pitch is common at the youth level. (You use tennis balls or wiffle balls, not real baseballs).

I knew you were a Rat, but I really didn't realize how blind of one until now.

You can't identify a lie in a four sentence post, or you condone coaches lying to umpires.

You believe apples and oranges are the same fruit.

And you can't get enough of the LL kool-aide.

Congratulations. You've joined King Rat on the ignore list.

Give it up. You're giving him too much credit.

1. He equates telling a hit batter, after he checks out okay, "Don't let that fastball get by you" with telling a kid who gets clunked in the head, "Duck next time."

2. He can't determine if a coach who says he is still checking out a hurt kid, when, in fact, he no longer is, is telling the truth or not.

And, he really believes all this. (See: pathological).

No, apparently he doesn't know better.

Garth, based on Rich's history of posting, I believe that he does know better.

The lie to the umpire is one issue, and incontrovertible, it seems to me, IF one admits that the coach was coaching and not merely checking on his player.

So everything hangs on whether he was coaching. To me, that question turns NOT on the content of what the coach says, but on whether he's delaying the game in saying it.

In the OP, he is: he's standing (or whatever - motionless) next to the player and requiring the game to await the end of their conversation. IIRC, in Rich's second case, the coach is already off to the dugout, and the over-the-shoulder advice will not delay the game.

Pretty heavy weather on this issue, but I think there's a valuable point here: not everything an O-coach says to his players warrants charging him with a conference. The criterion I was taught is whether he's holding up the game.

You're confusing a Rat's knowledge of the rules, which can be impressive, with a Rat's attitude of right and wrong, which is dismal.

Rats, at times, know the black and white of the rulebook, but come time for application, they still think like a Rat.

Rats either--

dont bother to know rules or--

learn rules to twist to thier advantage. they see no other reason to do so!

Is the term Rat used perjoratively or tongue-in-cheek or both?

Is that your entire experience with coaches?

ANY umpire whos been in the 'game' long enough....this WILL be your experience-- if its not, then you arent umpiring games of conseqence.


if you want to study the back ground of the term "rat' you need to do a search here--if you are not familair with the term then you are brandnew to umpiring!

:) I think I have enough experiences and game counts to say that my overall experience with coaches has been as varied as their's with umpires. A lot of good, bad and mixed. I catch the drift of the word Rat and, no, the term is common only here as far as I know.

I'm with you until here. No asking, it's time to remind the coach he's over stepped his bounds and to exit, Stage Right.


Draw it tight, sharp and quick.

Depends on the Rat.

Having worked in four states and having close friends in at least ten others, I know the term to be common in many areas of the country.

Originally Posted by Interested Ump
Is the term Rat used perjoratively or tongue-in-cheek or both?Glad to hear.:D

Are your association officers and league officials (district and school athletic coordinators) aware that you write in such a derogatory manner about the coaches, in at least some cases, of their member schools?

Coaches like you are the main reason that the term "rats" is so widely used.

Just saying.......:)

Why should we care what the school district administrators think? I only see AD's at playoff games anyway.

They sign your checks, for one thing.

Coach, I suspect some are. Just as we are aware of the derogatory terms and language used by certain area coaches towards umpires.

The term Rat is an old one and, in part, refers to the fact that some coaches, while appropriately acting as lobbyists for their teams, take that to such an exteme that, during the game, what they say becomes suspect and disbelieved. Some of the top Spokane area coaches have outright lied to me and tried to cheat during games and admitted it afterwards, shrugging it off as, "part of my job."

Hard as it is for some beginners to believe, we accept that, although we still consider it dishonest and rat-like behavior.

Off the field, I have an excellent relationship with many of the coaches who display this kind of behavior on the field.

SE USA, FL presently (if I ever get a flight back instead of missing them -duh). Never heard Rat. Others terms less kind, by the truckload. :D

And I provide my service.

Remember, these are the same people who call us stupid, blind, cheaters, homies, and these are the nice things!

Yawn!

My checks are signed by my association President. We work on a 4 year contract with the local HS leagues in our area. The schools pay their respectives leagues.

I hear what you are saying, however; I consider the players/coaches to be our real 'customer' if you want to use that kind of terminology. I never consider the school administration or AD's in the same way.

LL baseball, Williamsport, Rats, focus on the subject guys.

Gawd I will be glad when the tournament is over so the feeding frenzy will end.

rats causually lie so we casually call them RATS.

only folks here getin upset bout that are the RATS. wonder why that is? :)

I have to admit, Larry, that you have a point there. ;)

Good news for you. ;)

http://tinyurl.com/3df9b3

Spellcheck, Larry, Spellcheck!

It was stated here before but, I believe, needs to be repeated: if coaches and players didn't try to cheat, there would be no need for umpires.

That reminds me of something I saw last spring.

As I was leaving school one day, I saw our JV team scrimmaging a cross town rival. There were no umpires and the coaches were taking turns calling balls and strikes from behind the pitcher, each calling for their own defense.

I walked up to the far end of the home side dugout and watched as a coach called a low and outside pitch a strike. I noted to the head coach in the third base box, "You'd have chewed my butt if I called that."

He replied, "No worries. I get to call when we're pitching. Stick around you'll see that one again."

I have found that those who are irresponsible in their treatment of one class of people are typically irresponsible toward several classes of people. The excuse is often parlayed that its locker room talk or that no one really means what they are saying. That is also not true. Insulting and degrading behavior is meant to be exactly that.

No one can change how people treat each other. I would like to think that umpires would be above such childish language, that they would have a higher opinion of themselves and their fellow man. That isn't the reality.

Rat used as you admitted, in a cruel and degrading sense, serves no positive purpose. In the end, it reflects poorly on the user, nothing else. That reflection boils over on all officials which is a reality and a shame concurrently.

In the past, I tried to make light of coaches, players, parents and fans who have asked me about people who use pejorative terms like Rat but I don't anymore. I tell the questioners they have it right. The user is a dunce and I that I intend to separate myself as far as possible from the abuser and the abusive language.

In the past you have claimed to be unfamiliar with the term.

In the past you posted a very similar post in the "Smittyisms" thread.

In the past you used a different "moniker" and couldn't hold out for long before you went after your targeted posters and exposed yourself for who you are.

I don't need to wait any longer.

Ta-ta UninterestingUmp. Join your alter-ego, FitUmp, on the ignore list.

Originally Posted by Interested Ump
In the past, I tried to make light of coaches, players, parents and fans who have asked me about people who use pejorative terms like Rat but I don't anymore. I tell the questioners they have it right. The user is a dunce and I that I intend to separate myself as far as possible from the abuser and the abusive language.
Let's unhook this inaccuracy, my quote is highlighted above.

Use this when you cite.

http://www.shorturl.com/

This is like grade school. Do you have any other fantasies? Did I hear several Ignore List functions being engaged at once? Take 10 and have a smoke with your gang. Stand around and make fun of anyone and everyone, make sure you use demeaning terms like Rat. Enjoy recess!

I wasn't going to jump in however after reading the last few post from Int, I have to! Rats are rats period. Every league has them. There the ones out there trying to bend and cheat the rules to gain an advantage. They yell and scream about balls and strikes, safe and outs, and when they get dumped they use every four letter word in the book directed at you, the umpire for enforcing the rules. And when they go to their precious AD, they once again lie through their teeth. Or worse yet, the AD is on site and fails to disicpline the rat for cussing you up one side and down the other. Some role model! No they're rats. Now as far as being fair. absouletly I know a rat when I hear them, I won't change my calls because of dislike for him. My integrity is far above that. I sure as hell won't have a beer with him anytime, anywhere. Just because of his actions I won't penalize the kids that have no choice but to play for him. They act the way they do because there are those that allow it, so they become emboldened and push it until a real umpire shows up and dumps his a$$ for it, then he's off to the AD crying, I didn't do anything. Or he's on the phone before the next pitch to your assignor, how dare he do this, he doesn't know the rules.. he's looking for trouble, he dumped me for no reason or the all famous he just doesn't like me whine. Yes RATS... and as for those that coach.. I've heard what they say about umpires, it's far worse than Rats!! :mad:

If you are who you claim to be, then you know to what Garth is referring and you know where this is headed. You have the chance to steer clear of that ending.

If you are who Garth claims you are, then you won't be able to change course.