Got in trouble for this ejection
 

I had an ejection last night, 8/14. The 13 year old team third manager was ejected. Here is the situation. Bottom of the sixth starts with 10 minutes left on the time limit. Runners on 2nd and 3rd, one out. After the count goes 3 balls and no strikes on the batter, with 3 minutes left, the coach calls time out to talk to the batter. I put the ball back into play and he sends the runner from third with no attempt to try to score and then he sends the runner from second to get him tagged out. He says that now we have time to start another inning. I told him he was making a mockery of the game, the game was over, and he is ejected. This was done in accordance with rule 4.15 which reads as follows:

4.15 A game may be forfeited to the opposing team when a team:
(a) Fails to appear upon the field, or being upon the field, refuses to start play within five minutes after the umpire has called "Play" at the appointed hour for beginning the game, unless such delayed appearance is, in the umpire's judgment, unavoidable;
(b) Employs tactics palpably designed to delay or shorten the game;
(c) Refuses to continue play during a game unless the game has been suspended or terminated by the umpire;
(d) Fails to resume play, after a suspension, within one minute after the umpire has called "Play;"
(e) After warning by the umpire, willfully and persistently violates any rules of the game;
(f) Fails to obey within a reasonable time the umpire's order for removal of a player from the game;
(g) Fails to appear for the second game of a doubleheader within twenty minutes after the close of the first game unless the umpire in chief of the first game shall have extended the time of the intermission.

Got into a heap of trouble after the manager called the owners of the complex the game was played who called the President of my umpire association. They said I had no right to stop the game or eject the manager. Any opinions?

Ed H

Under which rule listed do you think "making a mockery of the game" falls under?

A. He did not fail to appear on the field.
B. He did not delay or shorten the game, in fact he "quickly" made it possible to lengthen the game.
C. He did not refuse to continue play.
D. He did not refuse to resume play.
E. He did not willfully and persistently violate the rules.
F. He did not fail to obey an umpires order.
G. He did not fail to appear for the second game of a DH, etc.

I don't get how you could use this rule to end the game and toss the manager. Enlighten me.

The game would have ended by time limit rule in 3 minutes, he delayed the end of the game. While we are on the subject enlighten me. Are you contending that managers are within the rules to do things like this, have their batters swing at every pitch to get out on purpose, or throw pitches on a bounce to the plate to walk batters to extend the game or for whatever reason? I've seen posts about these tactics.

Sorry. I don't believe that is what is meant by delay. Delay refers to the pace of the game in normal lexicon, e.g. excessive timeouts, staying to long at the mound during a conference, holding a batter up excessively before getting into the box, etc. He extended the game, he did not delay it.

I didn't say it wasn't bush, I just believe, as apparently do the others involved, that the action is not covered by the rule you cite.

in your case ed the defense didnt have to playon the runners--but they did so the results stand! no rules violated here. its like throwing over to firstbase 10,000 times w a runner on--irritating but theres still ACTION/play going on so its not a rules violation!

excesive conferances and stuff thats different.

OBR doesn't take into consideration a timed game. Unless it's specifically stated on the local/tournament rules, you really don't have a legal leg to stand on.

Did the manager actually protest, or just run to Mommy?

What about teams that have there batters get up and swing to get out in order to make a game official due to time limits or daylight issues. I don't necessarily buy the argument. We can discuss the application of the rule that Garth says doesn't reply, but that is not the point. Is there any rule against such obvious tactics that violate the integrity of the game?

A lot of screaming and comments as we walked away, but no official protest before we left the field. BTW, I lost two scheduled games from the President of my association as a penalty.

Ed,
At least for USSSA and Super Series, which do have rules concerning time limits, there is no rule against this. And as I read the situation, the home team was behind or tied, had a great start to their half of the inning, and yet they chose to make outs. Sounds like they wanted to play one more inning of baseball, and the umpire didn't. That's poor customer service, considering the time limit hadn't expired.

Perhaps you confused this situation with one in which a team loses the game intentionally in order to gain an advantage during the rest of a tournament? There are rules against that.

As it applies to your situation, no.

Poor customer service? Bah.

I don't work where I'm not in complete control of the clock. That way, when sh!t like this happens, I declare the time limit expired and go to the house. And then remember not to work for places like this.

Trust me, not having to answer to one central assignor is sometimes quite a blessing.

hell as long as a team is makin a PLAY as defined in the book its ok by me--if thats "BUSHLeageu" thats betwen the teams. i see only a PLAY here (stealin) so whateevr happens i got NO TRAVesty only play ball!


i dont get this MOCkery stuff. what rule is violated? mr Garth is right, you dont have to LIKE it, only ENFORCE it!

So the manager sent his players into "dead-man plays"? So what? There is no rule against this. So you start another inning - that's what you are being paid for! When the time limit comes to pass you deal with it then and not before! Stop Inventing Rules!

This is why I hate Time Limits in baseball.

It's illegal to delay in a time limit game. Batters taking extra time to tie their shoes, to ensure the clock runs out... fielders refusing to throw to the pitcher when play has stopped, specifically to run out the clock ... THOSE are illegal.

The OPPOSITE, which is what happened to you, is absolutely not illegal. You may hate it, but it's not. You SHOULD have gotten in trouble.

PS - even in the first case, you simply forfeit - no ejection necessary unless someone crosses the line after the forfeit.

[QUOTE]Read Rich's response. The Umpires have the Official Clock PERIOD. Whenever shenanigans happen as you describe them do not make a mess of the situation.

At the end of 6 simply say according to our watch Time limit reached = Game Over and Go Home. Let the coach squalk all he wants. If the game no longer resembles what is supposed to be a baseball game then it's time to leave.

Why the HT coach wanted to play an extra inning I do not know but he can do that on his own time not mine.

Pete Booth

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]So it's ok to cheat on the clock, but not elsewhere? Lying about the time is no better than lying about any other call.

[QUOTE]
From the OP

[QUOTE]If you are going to allow the aforementioned in one of your games - Go ahead. All that can come out of this is ugliness. The object of the game of baseball is to try and score more runs than your opponent not to Give them outs.

I do not have a problem if I have to stay there "all day" as long as the teams are indeed playing the game of baseball.

The reason the HT coach is employing the tactics he did is to EXTEND the game. He was not playing the game of baseball. In fact IMO it is the coach who is "cheating"

When there's only 3 minutes left on the clock and the team is employing shenanigans then it's time to go home because if the HT played the game the way they should in the first place the game would have indeed ended after 6.

Pete Booth

[QUOTE=PeteBooth][QUOTE]


From the OP

Okay. Let's say you're absolutely right about your reasons. The question is will you be honest when you call the game and cite these reasons, or will you lie and say time has run out?

[QUOTE][QUOTE=GarthB]2 answers.

1. On the field I would not cite any reason but what do as Rich mentioned and simply say Time limit reached - game Over. In the technical sense yes I would lie but we are talking about 3 minutes in a meaningless game in which shenanigans took place. After all it was the HT coach who wanted for some ukknown reason to play an extra inning.


BTW I have started an inning with only 3 minutes left but that was because the teams were hustling and playing the game of baseball. In the OP this was not the case.


2. If the coach got Po'd over my decision and called my assignor, I would tell my assignor what the deal was and knowing my assignor the way I do he would have no problem in what I did.

I am surpised at the responses in this OP in that posters seem to actually condone what this coach did and have no problem with it.

Pete Booth

[QUOTE-PeteBooth]The object of the game of baseball is to try and score more runs than your opponent not to Give them outs.[/QUOTE]So ... it's the object of the game for him to try to win... but if he chooses this particular tactic to get there, you're going to cheat against him? It's not our jobs to decide which methods we will allow coaches to use to try to win. Obviously for some reason he felt that ending this particular inning and getting a fresh start was his best shot. Regarding "giving them outs", isn't a sac bunt or sac fly the same thing - giving up an out to give the team a better chance to win? You going to end the game early if someone does that too?

So now it's your duty to determine that this particular game is meaningless? Where does this end? You would lie because you don't like the particular tactic this coach chose to try to win. This isn't the first time I've said this, but I want guys like you nowhere near fields I'm responsible for filling with umpires. This attitude SUCKS.

"In the technical sense, I would lie." You are CHEATING.

If the rulesmakers wanted this particular tactic outlawed, it would be outlawed. Don't make up rules to fit your own sense of fair play.

You are comparing Apples / Oranges

A sac bunt / Sac Fly is PART of the GAME. It means that the team IS Trying to score which is entirely different than what is happening in this thread.

Feeling is mutual because if you condone what this manger did then I wouldn't work for you along with many umpires I know. I already mentioned that if the game dictated it I do not have a problem being out there "all day" but that is not the case in this thread.

Pete Booth

You make a lot of assumptions.

Find any place where I say I condone this manager's actions. In fact, while I can understand giving up a 3rd out to get into another inning when you're down by more than a couple of runs, especially if you have your better hitters coming soon... but I think it was probably bad managing to give up TWO outs, especially with R2 and R3 already.

However, my personal views about the stupidity of his strategy are irrelevant. We are there to officiate the game, not make judgement on tactics. While I think this manager's actions might be stupid, or even contrary to the intent of the game ... THAT'S NOT MY CALL, nor is it yours.

You are simply cheating to penalize a LEGAL tactic that you don't like.

My point, repeatedly made, and repeatedly missed by you, is that this tactic is NOT against the rules, and your unilateral decision to rob him of the 3 minutes he gained by taking this tactic is completely against any code of ethics I want my umpires following. There's no better word than cheating.

[QUOTE]
OBR 4.15(b) - Employs tactics palpably designed to DELAY or shorten the game

From the OP

Let's see we have R2/R3 one out and a count of 3-0 on B1

The manager calls Time and then sends r3/R3 to PURPOSELY get called out.

Why did the manger do this?

Was it to win the game - Doubt it

With R2/R3 and 3-0 on B1 there is a VERY GOOD Chance that B1 would have walked and the 3 minutes most likely would have ended with the next batter's at bat that's why the manager did what he did.

IMO, this is a classic case of a manager employing tactics to DELAY the game.

If the HT truly wanted to win the game what better chance then to have the bases juiced and only 1 out. For some strange reason the HT coach wanted to play an extra inning. Perhaps he wanted to try so and So on the mound etc. It surely was not to try and win a game.

As mentioned it is the Coach who was "cheating" by not playing the inning the way it should have been played and therefore, time would have run out anyway.

Let me put it another way. Let's say a particular league has a 10 run rule after 5 innings.

95 degree heat, Bottom 5 HT is winning by 9 runs 2 outs and R3. B1 hits a rope into the gap, the manager tells R3 to stay put. What is your next move?

Answer: That's a balk have a nice day gentlemen

Pete Booth

The 13 year old team third manager was ejected.

How many managers did this team have? I thought there was only ONE per team.

Bob

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]Most likely he did this to have another full inning to try to win the game or get kids in the game or whatever. It is not a delaying tactic and as bush as it, (and it is bush), it is not illegal.


[QUOTE=PeteBooth]The most important thing I bring to a field in my credibility. I do not lie to coaches.

If you have the balls to end the game because of this, you should have the balls to tell the truth.

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]I have to ask why you think this. I'm proceeding from the assumption that the reason he did this was that for SOME reason (not knowing who is batting next, whether the other team's current pitcher would have to be removed for some reason, etc) he DID think that this move helped his team win. I may disagree ... but I have to assume that his move came with that reason in mind. I don't understand why you think otherwise.

Now you've abandoned all sense. With 1 out, why would the inning end with his at bat? If it's a drop-dead time limit, and the game DOES end during this kid's at bat ... then beginning another inning is pointless anyway, so that can't be it. The logic here sounds like you DO think he was employing this tactic to give himself a better chance to win... Which is it?

As much as you want it to be, delay and hasten are not synonyms. Delaying the game is a completely opposite thing ... slowing things down to cause time to run off PREVENTING an extra inning from being played. If the rulesmakers wanted hastening an inning to be included in this rule, they could have and would have. They didn't. this move is not illegal, even if it's bush league.

It's not cheating if his tactic is legal.

Holy crap. Bad enough you admit you'd cheat by misreading your watch. Now you're inventing things in play just to get home earlier. Please keep you're sorry cheating backside off the field. The game's not about getting your lazy butt home early - it's about making accurate rulings about what you see in the game. Not inventing things. I'm completely flabbergasted that you purport to be an umpire. Tell TimD I said hi.

WOW is mr PeteBooth a rat in his spare time? sure reads like it!!

his attitude is the same as outlawing the skunk play cause "I dont like it, thats all". Bush does NOT always mean ILLEGAL. Your making up rules to GO HOME EARLY, lying as you go. pitiful. you should RETURN your gamefee.

Leave the LYING to RATS. oh waitaminute......

At least he's honest about his dishonesty. Wait, how do we know he's telling the truth about this? :)

Thanks for the spirited discussion. Since I started the thread and based on the discussion, here are my final thoughts.

Regarding the ejection:
After the play, the manager anounces out loud something to the effect of "now we have time for another inning." To me that is showing up the umpire and throwing in my face what he did. This is an ejection in my mind and I bet the majority of those out there would have tossed the manager.

Time limit:
It is no inning can start after, the inning goes to completion, not a drop dead time. He has the opportunity to score and win the game. If the batter hit the next pitch into a double play, the next inning starts. Don't say I was looking to get out of there early. In fact, the game afterwards received one start time and really started three minutes later. We gave them three minutes and at 12:27 am (yes, a.m.) we started a new inning without sticking to the original time limit and finished the game at 12:55 a.m. (don't ask about the scheduling). So there was a perfect time to end the game by rule at 12:27 and we didn't.

Now interpreting the rule:
The only thing that is clear is that there is no rule. I will stand by my interpretation and feel I can make a reasonable argument for what I did. A reasonable argument. Only my association can make a determination on how to deal with what happened. Both the President and Umpire-in-Chief did not say what I did was necessarily wrong, but took the politically safe way out regarding their relationship with the account and I took one for the team without asking for an appeal.

My view of the rules as it pertains:
1.02 The objective of each team is to win by scoring more runs than the opponent.
The team was not trying to win by scoring more runs and thus not fulfilling the objective of the game.

4.15 A game may be forfeited to the opposing team when a team:
(b) Employs tactics palpably designed to delay or shorten the game;
Again, in my opinion, he had the opportunity to win the game if he played on. The manager chose to deliberately delay the end of the game for whatever purpose went through his mind.

9.01

(c) Each umpire has authority to rule on any point not specifically covered in these rules.
This is clearly not covered in specifically in the rules and this was my interpretation.


9.04 (a) The umpire in chief shall stand behind the catcher. (He usually is called the plate umpire.) His duties shall be to:
(1) Take full charge of, and be responsible for, the proper conduct of the game;

In my opinion, this was not proper conduct of the game.

If this was a court of law it would require case law to decide and there is none because this type of situation with time limits is not covered by MLB rules. There is no resolution only opinions, once again, thanks for yours.

Ed H

[QUOTE=edhern]
Again, in my opinion, he had the opportunity to win the game if he played on. The manager chose to deliberately delay the end of the game for whatever purpose went through his mind.
[/QUOTE=edhern]

Ed,

What do you think he was thinking? Why did he want to play another inning? Do you think he was trying to lose the game?

I'm not jumping down your throat like I did Pete - you are asking for input, and not sure whether what you did was right ... and at least are not advocating blatantly making up rules to curtail something you just don't like.

But...
Profane, prolonged, or personal. If this is an ejection by itself, I suggest getting thicker skin. If this comment was after some sort of related argument, and it was obvious he was trying to show you up, fine, toss him. By itself, this comment doesn't sound ejectionable.

I didn't. I said Pete was. I don't think this was your motivation at all. I think your motivation was that you thought he was breaking a rule, and you were enforcing that rule. My only response to this is that it was not, in fact, breaking a rule, and you overstepped your authority inadvertently.

At the risk of sounding like I'm just trying to be contrary to everything ... this is just as bad. The game ends when the game ends. Don't cut it short, and don't "give them another inning". Had the lead changed hands in that "extra inning", your decision to go outside the time limit could have cheated one team.

Fair enough. Just know for the future that there is no rule against getting out on purpose to try to get a new inning in in a time limit game. There IS a rule against delaying, but this is the opposite.

The below sections seem to be weak justifications for what you did, in retrospect. But I'll hit each one.
The objective is not a rule per se as much as a definition. There's no penalty for violating a definition.

I don't know how it's an opinion to reverse the definition of "delay" or "shorten". This rule applies to situations exactly opposite from the one you were confronted with. Employing a tactic that a manager thinks will help him win by getting to another inning, for whatever reason, is not illegal.

This has been covered here before... but if you have to resort to 9.01c, you are probably misinterpreting something. If a hangglider lands on your field ... an earthquake disrupts play ... a fence falls into the field... etc - go get your 9.01c. MOST things that can be anticipated are in the rulebook ... and a coach letting his kids get out so he can play another inning has SURELY been anticipated.


So eject. Conduct is one thing. Tactics is completely different, and covered elsewhere.

This is not the first time this has ever happened. Trust us (not just me), a wealth of experience here has told you that what this manager did is not illegal. Folks that have faced this. Folks that have been in rooms when rule changes are discussed. Trust me - it's not illegal.

I feel compeled to chime in on this discussion. Firstly, you take it upon yourself to make up your own rules, and apply them as you saw fit. Secondly, you fall back on 9.01c as a backup. Quite lame of you, if you ask me. And thirdly, I disagree with what the manager did, but it is fully within the rules, (as has been shown earlier in this thread), and then you decide he's "showing
up the umpire and throwing in my face what he did". How rabbit-eared of you.
Possibly, this situation is not covered in the OBR for the simple reason that it is NOT illegal. Nice of you to solicit input, and then try to argue everyone down when they disagree with what you have done.

Ed,

Bottom line here is, you keep trying to justify your actions with rules that don't apply to a rule that doesn't exist in OBR.

You imply that you were in no hurry to get out of there but ,because it was not under your conditions then things were different. In your own mind, you were offended because he was able to extend the game within the confines of the rules.

If you truly took what the coach said personal ,then you are going to have problems with higher level ball. Believe me, this won't be your only mistake officiating, I GUARANTEE THAT. Learn from it.

Incorrect.

Stand by or sit by, doesn't matter. It's incorrect. BTW: Nice spin to claim taking one for the team, when in fact neither your president or UIC could take your back on this.

Wrong again. The reasons for a forfeit are specifically addressed. It is improper to employ 9.01(c) here.


Once again, you have no backing by rule.[/QUOTE]


Hopefully you are not an attorney.

I can't find any logic to this tactic. If his team is leading in the bottom of the 6th with 2 runners on and 1 out he should want to continue to score, or at least have the time limit expire. If his team is trailing he should want to score to take the lead. You didn't say what the score was so it's hard to figure.

Anyway, he is up to no good. By the time we have runners on 2nd and 3rd with 1 out and a runner is sent home with no intent to score the 10 minutes we started with are nearly gone. Call time out and have a discussion, "what's going on coach?". Dust off the plate, talk to the catcher. Take your time to put the ball in play.

Anyone who has ever worked a time limit game has milked the clock when near the time limit in a blowout, or in this case where something fishy is going on.

I'm more than happy to put myself with Pete on this one, regardless of the names I'm called. I couldn't possibly care less, although depending on the league I'd just finish the game and never go back there again.

But you put yourself apart from Pete as soon as you said you'd finish the game. See...even when you try to be cavalier, you still end up doing the right thing.:D

Another useless thread! The unknowing ask, the learned and experienced give the correct answers and the unlearned argue their incorrect action.

• When you make up rules, you are wrong!
• When you misapply rules, you are wrong!
• When you do either of the above, you have no backing!
• When you do either of the above and still argue that you are right, you are not worth discussing with.

Garth, put it away, you will never win! You and I both know the right way to handle this situation, we made our point so why bother any more?

End of story.

I wouldn't want to put that kind of attention on myself.

I ran into a time limit issue this year, actually. Little League, Junior level, interleague. I had a watch in my back pocket. Both teams screwed around at the start of the game taking excessive infield erven though the field was ready in PLENTY of time and I made it clear the clock had started (and no, there was no specific rule about first pitch or anything and the umpires that do these games pretty much have to fill in the gaps in rules and the one thing I don't do is show up to a game and then wait until past the start time while the coaches show me who owns the field).

We play to the time limit and I call the game. Visiting coach comes out screaming and hollering saying that there's still 5 minutes left. They're down 8 runs and I reminded him what I had said when we finally had the plate meeting. Then he started in on how I'm just trying to screw the players, blah, blah. That's when I turned and kept walking, even though I had parents calling me names all the way to the car.

I hate, HATE time limits, but if I gotta....without a time limit, I would've been a bit more forceful in getting the teams started on time, I must say.

I'm a little confused. You stopped one game before the time limit, and then you extended the next game beyond the time limit?

On the original play -- yes, what the coach did was (likely) "wrong." That said, it's a league issue, not an umpire issue. You can write a report if you think he's making a "mockery of the game", but you should have, imo, completed the game.

Well, why even have this board then? Ozzy is right. Put it away, folks.

I think that if you worked in an area where the clock was in plain view, and not in your back pocket, the whole issue of whether YOU were screwing anyone would go away --- they'd all see the clock moving and perhaps hustle their pregame rituals ... and they'd DEFINITELY see time expire, and not be reliant on something they can't see or don't trust.

The only reason I can think of for a coach doing this is to get players in who have not played and by rule must.

Rich, the board is a place to learn! What's been going on in this thread (as in many others lately) is what I stated. A question is posed, a correct answer is given (and bared out by many, many veterans) and then the it turns into a battle to prove the incorrect is correct! You have seen it yourself! I've seen you involved in many posts that you were 100% correct, quoted the proper rule and the dumba$$ still argues with you.

So this is why I told Garth to "pack it up" and not waste his time. If that's a problem then I'm sorry but I was speaking to Garth.

Offendi offensus imprabus specular. Mea-culpa

We just don't see enough of this kind of thing on this board. κυδος, Οζ!

So a coach who is behind with two runners in scoring position probably about to have the bases loaded with only one out gives up the momentum of an inning that has the potential to be a big inning for the prospect of extending the game?
He may not have broken any rules, but he seems quite the doofus.
Would this be a "smittyism" on the coach?

And even if THAT's the reason ... it's legal. Assuming the penalty for not playing his players is forfeiture, he's giving up 2 outs to give himself a chance to win.

...until a OOO plate ump FORFIETS the game on him cuz he 'didnt like what he saw.' :rolleyes:

I have coached in a league that had time limits and umpired leagues with time limits. I didn't like either one of them very well. I believe if you play a game that is started and ended with a time limit, there should be a clock on the scoreboard for all to see. You have to finish an inning that was started if the home team is behind or tied. If the horn goes off during the bottom of the inning, game over.(If the home team is winning)

This is the reason that most time limits here in SD have a "no new inning can start after ____," and a "drop dead time," where no matter where you are in an inning, the game is over, and reverts back to the last inning's score no matter what. It is always 15 minutes from the "no new inning" time to the "drop dead time."