Brushing off the picthing plate and the bases
 

My significant other umpires FP softball and was selected to do a national tournament and luckily the tournament is about a 5 min drive from my house. Anyways I went to watch her umpire today and saw her brushing off the pitching plate in between innings and a base if it got dirty. I was asking myself WTF because she is no "smitty", but I wasn't going to ask her during the game. Well, after the game I asked her what the heck she was doing and she said the UIC wants them to do it and she would have gotten marked off on her "grade" if she didn't. Here is something we are adamantly against doing, yet in FP softball they are required to do it. I thought that was hilarious........

ASA has the BU brush the pitcher's plate when necessary.

Yeah, from what I've heard, "we" have to be able to see the pitcher's plate - F1 has to be in contact when she releases the ball. I got the same explanation - It's an ASA thing.

What's funny though is to have an ASA guy on the bases during a baseball game and watch him clean the rubber and 2B - talk about WTF?:eek: I wasn't sure I could keep from laughing.

Not true..

OK...

I'll make it right - they brush it off cuz they have to see it for some reason.

Nice mouth, thinking "WTF" around a lady!

If you only knew half the things I thought around her :) :) :)

As the old punchline goes, "That's no lady, that's my wife!"

Then, why do FP umpires clean off the rubber? Is it a required mechanic in softball?

If memory serves, watching the College World Series, the pitchers were 2-3 feet in front of the rubber as they released the ball.

I found an entire forum dedicated to answering this kind of question. Check it out!

http://tinyurl.com/2ovevw

I think he meant that F1 doesn't have to be in contact when she releases the ball as I stated (I really need to find better sources!!!)

Hey, Erie, since when can she hear what I'm thinking? We'd all have dislocated jaws if women could hear everything we think around them.:cool: He didn't say that he verbalized it.

is this a softball FORUM now?

Brush off, kick the dirt off, what difference does it make? Kick a base clean, brush it clean, what difference does it make?

I have learned many things from FP and SP umpires, it's really (b)anal to make fun of them as if we have some kind of exclusive corner on wonderfulness. :mad:

Another thing to consider is that the rubber in small ball is elevated on a mound while the pitching plate in softball is on level ground. Softball umpires have to see where F1's feet land in respect to the pitching plate as well. It is 24" wide and F1 has to stay within that width in delivering the ball.

Exactly. There's no requirement to be in contact with the rubber at the time the pitch is released. Same as in baseball - it's a starting point.

There's no requirement to be in contact with the rubber at the time the pitch is released. Same as in baseball

How's that again?

There is no requirement to be in contact with the rubber at the time the pitch is released. Same as in baseball.

He only need be in contact at the time of the pitch. It is nearly impossible to stay in contact with the rubber at the time of the release, as the pitcher's momentum and weight has shifted onto his front leg.

http://www.newbalancetampa.com/blog/.../pitcherNB.jpg

http://www.craiggibsonbaseball.com/B...NewRelease.jpg

Thank you for illustrating my point, fitty.

It's an Incredible Advantage Otherwise...
 

In fastpitch softball, because it is such a pitcher driven game, strict rules are created to limit what a pitcher can and can't do. One of the requirements of youth and women's fastpitch is that the pitcher come to a pause with two feet in contact with the rubber. If the pitcher is right-handed, they will put their right heel in contact with the front of the rubber, and the left foot's toes in contact with the back of the rubber. From this position, the pitcher must push forward and the pivot (right) foot must drag away from the pitcher's plate. The reason for cleaning the pitcher's plate is to monitor the back foot (toes) of the pitcher. Every inch a pitcher is able to move their back foot backward (illegally) gains that pitcher an immense advantage in the velocity the pitcher is able to throw. And so, it must be clear to the BU that the pitcher does have both feet in contact with the pitcher's plate at the beginning of the pitching motion.

It should be noted that in men's fastpitch, the pitcher is allowed to keep only the pivot foot in contact with the rubber and the other foot may be positioned any distance back of the rubber. This is because the hitters in fastpitch softball are better than in women's and youth ball, and so, to give the pitcher's a better chance to throw at a high velocity and be more effective. Thus, the umpire is less likely to clean the pitcher's plate.

OK, I see what you mean. In baseball there's a slight disengagement practically simultaneous with the release. The pivot foot comes off just after the other foot hits the ground. (Funny, even as a pitcher, I never considered exactly what was happening during the motion.) But the nature of the overhand delivery makes it virtually impossible to "crow hop," so a replant of the pivot foot isn't an issue.

But in FP, the disengagement occurs much earlier, when the pitcher's arm is beginning to descend behind her. At the time of release, the pivot foot is several feet in front of the rubber, and the umpire has to be watching for a replant. (I do a lot of ASA and NCAA, and it's not difficult to spot.) After a FP game, the "groove" on the mound is long and deep. There's no such groove after a baseball game.

Now assuming a baseball pitcher wanted to pitch underhand, would the FP motion be legal?

it must be clear to the BU that the pitcher does have both feet in contact with the pitcher's plate at the beginning of the pitching motion

You make some good points, VanStanza, but remember that in Fed, the pitchers don't have to have both feet in contact. (However, I hear Fed is considering getting the rule in line with ASA and NCAA.) But the pitchers I see don't start with the right heel in contact with the front of the rubber. They generally put the pivot foot squarely on the rubber so that they can push off with the entire foot. And NCAA requires that at least half the foot be on the top surface of the pitcher's plate, while ASA does not.

still dont see why FP softyball is discussed here

It's at least as relevant as starting a new thread on Joe Morgan that has nothing to do with rules or umpiring.

still dont see why FP softyball is discussed here

It is discussed as it relates to baseball. I am one of many umpires who do both baseball and softball, and I don't try to insulate understanding of one game from understanding of the other. Softball derived from baseball, and in my opinion is best understood in that context. It is instructive, for example, in studying softball rules, such as with regard to INT and OBR, to understand how they differ from (or are similar to) OBR. That principle can work the other way, too.

There are people on the softball board who get upset when someone invokes baseball, but if comparing the rule sets aids in the understanding of some aspect of one or the other, I don't see any problem.

I know there are baseball umps who look down on softball and act as if any discussion of it—much less the officiating of it—would somehow be beneath them. I'm not one of them.

It's not as if somebody decided to use the baseball board to pose a question on field hockey.

I've been participating in these boards for years, and if a thread takes a turn that doesn't interest me, it's easy to ignore it.

He probably started a new Joe Morgan thread to replace the one that mysteriously disappeared.:(

fair enuf mr Bob you got me. i have wiped out that thread. now on with the softyball! :)

For the record, I didn't delete either Joe Morgan thread.

And, I haven't deleted this thread because it might contribute to an understanding of the arguements we sometimes have over whether baseball umpires should clean the pitcher's rubber and / or bases (and how much of a smitty it makes them if they do so).

For the record, I deleted my original Joe Morgan thread because it had devolved into an inane pissing contest about whether cancer is funny, instead of an inane pissing contest about whether Joe Morgan is a good announcer.

Welcome, wanna know something that few do?

There is more force applied to the arm of the FP pitcher than the same aged baseball pitcher. :eek:

Spot on, nice post.

Ever call any Men's, what a blast, they pull F3/F5 in tight, the ball is huge and it's an easy PU call. The games go lickety-split, low scoring, I loved it.

I'd disagree with that - as well as virtually every doctor that has studied the topic. I believe most rule sets allow the girls to pitch much more than the guys of the same age. Even LL did a study this past year and that's why they put the boys on pitch count - but not the girls. FP motion puts far less strain on the arm than a baseball motion. :eek:

You may disagree but :

"Dr. Sherry Werner of the Tulane Institute of Sports Medicine has been researching pitching mechanics for 19 years. She studied windmill pitchers as they performed throwing exercises. Different intervals of the pitch were observed, and kinetic calculations of the shoulder joints were calculated and then compared to those of baseball pitchers. What her research found was the stress placed on the shoulder joints was similar to baseball pitchers."

http://softballwest.com/articles/183/

My former employer worked with athletes and had more FP SB F2s than any other athlete in for post-rehab. Sherry was a frequent visitor.
It does but to a point. The FP pitcher stresses the elbow joint much less (less twisting) and the force is more vertical than horizontal to the shoulder joint. Larger muscles are involved for FP. Nonethe less, the amopunt of force in terms of bodyweight is nearly the same.

Similar? Yes. . . More? (As you said in your post) No. It was your "more stress" that got my attention. Sherry also said that while a player shouldn't throw game after game after game every other weekend - she did say that it was OK occasionally. I don't think any doctor would say that about a baseball motion . . . but I could be wrong on that too.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by fitump56
You may disagree but :

"Dr. Sherry Werner of the Tulane Institute of Sports Medicine has been researching pitching mechanics for 19 years. She studied windmill pitchers as they performed throwing exercises. Different intervals of the pitch were observed, and kinetic calculations of the shoulder joints were calculated and then compared to those of baseball pitchers. What her research found was the stress placed on the shoulder joints was similar to baseball pitchers."

http://softballwest.com/articles/183/

My former employer worked with athletes and had more FP SB F2s than any other athlete in for post-rehab. Sherry was a frequent visitor.


It does but to a point. The FP pitcher stresses the elbow joint much less (less twisting) and the force is more vertical than horizontal to the shoulder joint. Larger muscles are involved for FP. Nonethe less, the amopunt of force in terms of bodyweight is nearly the same.
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Stress (force) and the athletic injury is a complex science of kinesiolgy, biomechanics, anatomical fitness...point being that more force on a joint (which is where force is most influential) does not necesarily mean a higher cause of injury. The FP F2's force is pulling the shoulder joint vertically, Basbeall more to the anterior (horizontally); the former being easier for the human body to handle (decelerate).

See this widely ignored post.:D


http://forum.officiating.com/showpos...27&postcount=1

No, you would be right. Although the forces are equal, the body's ability to handle that force is much superior in the underhand pitch. Note the link above and the inverted palm pointing away from the body midline, a key deceleration for the OH pitcher. Not so good on the elbow. :eek:

Sadly, the coaches who have few FP pitchers wear them out b/c "it's easy on the arm". Horse****, my boss saw more girls F2s than boys. :mad:

F2's or F1's?

Both actually but significantly (by %) more girl F1s. Male F1s tended to have more diverse injuries probably caused by the fact that they often played other positions. Female F2s lower back and knees.