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Interestingly, for all the sound and fury to the contrary regarding how our way will impede one's career, mine looks a lot like his. 20+ years, moved up to d3 ball several years ago, and the NCAA coaches whine about those calls a lot less than internet forums would have you believe. |
This whole concept can be summed up as "making the expected call".
I'll give you an example from my minor league days: I had a "whacker" at first base on an infield ground ball with two outs and multiple base runners (I was in "C"). The play was very, very close, and I was using very, very good timing ;) (that is taking a long time) to make up my mind. Finally, I decided the runner was "safe". Before, saying "safe" or giving my mechanic, I noticed F3 throwing the ball back to the pitcher's mound (not to F1), the fielders trotting off the field, and the B/R taking off his helmet and batting gloves and with the first base coach waiting to take them back to the dugout. Now what would you the base umpire do in this situation? I think some posters in this thread would say: "You had a good long look at the play...you determined by examining all the evidence (watching the base, listening for the ball to hit the glove) that he was "safe", so call him "safe"." Others, would do what I did: "He's out." |
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What criteria do you use when you are Unsure or perhaps a better way to phrase it is you do not exactly know if the player was tagged or not. ? If you have never have been in that position then God bless you. Even when we have the prefect angle - do we actually KNOW that the runner's hand touched the bag before the tag, etc. Also, you are working Solo - do you have any criteria for making safe / out calls when in some instances you are 80 - 90 ft. away from the play (ala the pick-off at first base and steal of second)? On another note: do you "reward" good plays when dealing with "coin flip" calls. ie; Ground ball deep in the hole - great play by F6 and it'a a coin flip. Do you take into account that the defense made a great play and EVERYONE expects the OUT call or on the reverse side. B1 is busting it out of the box on a routine play in which the fielder proceeds to bobble it, boot it and again the call is a "coin flip" Thanks Pete Booth Pete Booth |
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Yes, there are two teams. The concepts I'm talking about deal with the same reality for both teams. I'm talking about when the umpire is the only one in the world who believes he saw it a certain way. It takes years of officiating baseball to develop the judgment and instincts to know when it happens. I didn't say anything about, "making stuff up." It's already there. There's nothing to make up. You're not fabricating a thing. An out is an out. I have a very difficult time believing that you and the baserunner were the only two people who could see the pitcher was failing to come set. Nevertheless, that's not something you should ignore. After all, the baserunner could see it. The pitcher was gaining an advantage. Balk him everytime. But if you're telling me that you're calling safe an R1 who's out by 6 steps because the pivot man was merely straddling second base instead of actually touching it, then I'd call you a microscope umpire. If you're telling me you'd call R3 safe in that Red Sox game I talked about because the catcher's heel came centimeters off the plate a second before gloving the throw, then I'd say you were obsessed with minutiae. |
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But that doesn't matter. I'm talking about an umpire making a call he thinks he sees when everyone (and I mean everyone) believes the exact opposite occurred. You can recognize when that happens. It is a technique that can be developed and honed for getting the call right -- not making the wrong call just because you think everyone isn't going to believe you. |
Interesting thread. It just so happens that I'm reading it as I'm watching a rare afternoon game, Chicago at Cleveland.
The White Sox had a runner on second who attempted a steal of third. The throw beat the runner by a wide margin. F5 had the glove down on the ground as the runner started his slide directly into the bag. "Yes!", I'm thinking. "He's out by a mile!". (I'm an Indians fan.) My, ummm, expectations were quickly quelched by a big safe signal from the third base umpire. Replays showed that the tag was missed, with the runner sliding about six inches to the side of the outstretched glove. So I guess the Major League umpire making that call can expect his walking papers any day now? :rolleyes: |
Omg!!!!
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Not only might did the replay likely show what you suggested, but they are working 4 man mechanics. Every play at a based or a plate there is an umpire all over the damn play. Peace |
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What is interesting how people on this board (usually newer) that take one comment from one situation and applying it to another situation that is not related to the original topic. ;)
Peace |
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Yes, I really did read every post on this thread. Seriously!
Did you seriously not see the little blue smiley that, according to the tags, equates to "sarcasm"? I don't post here often, but have read just about every thread on this board since I joined three years ago. If that makes me a "newbie"...then I guess I'm a newbie! This isn't my first exposure to the whole "expected call" debate. Responses here ranged from "that's an out" to "that's not an out". Some say that there has been a big change in how MLB umpires make the "expected call", others claim it's business as usual. Both sides of the fence were pretty well covered. And one post most certainly did imply that a professional umpire was dismissed for making a call other than the "expected" one. Along the way, there was a dose of chest thumping and a dash of name calling. Which, of course, doesn't really prove that I read anything. That applies to most every other thread on the board. :D |
Just came back from my game today. Four man crew (State semi-finals 18U) and I was U1. R1 with a huge secondary lead and F1 has R1 dead to nuts. R1 dives back, tag down but R1's fingers had the bag first. "Safe! Safe!" F3 looks at me like I just stabbed him in the heart. Defensive coach steps out and screams, "How is that possible? Sir, can I appeal that call to you?" Fans are going BS!
Coach comes to me and again asks, "How?". "Fingers got to the bag before the tag, coach. You had the runner dead but he was faster. Gotta call it fair, right coach?" Coach looks at me, smiles and says, "Okay Mario, I'll get my runners to grow their fingernails by the next half!" Fans still ticked off but F3 heard the explanation and he was okay with it. Coach was a perfect gentleman from then on also. Fans were still complaining about the call for the rest of the inning, but that is the difference of being right there as opposed to being 100' away. Here was a perfect situation were if I called what was expected, I would have screwed the player. Personally, I'd rather screw the fans than the players. Regards |
Bretman, I'm sorry you are mistaken
I was at that Sox-Indians game today, Section 153, Row Z, seat 9. That's about 20-25 rows from the field, on the 3B foul line, about half way up the line.
The guy from Chicago beat the throw to 3B, no matter what angle the TV monitor showed you on STO. It was an easy call for Tim Chetah, the 3B umpire to make. He stole the base on F1, Martinez would not have thrown him out if he had a cannon instead of an arm. I had him safe from my angle, and I had a great one to watch the play. The foot was on the back of the bag before Blake got the ball there. It was not a bad throw at all, but the expected call would be safe. |
That's not how it looked on the STO multiple replays, slow mo's and tight zooms.
They also showed Eric Wedge's perplexed and agitated reaction in the dugout. My impression was that the call didn't meet his expectations. But, hey, you were there (lucky dog!), I wasn't, and as the spectators always let us know the view from the stands is always the best view in the house! |
Interesting...
Sadly, STO had no camera view of the play from a 90 deg angle to the throw, and the 3B ump would block out the camera from the LF foul pole/line.
I had almost the same view as the Indians dugout would have seen it from, and Wedge was down 4 runs at the time, he wouldn't like anything but out in that case. To my eye it weas an easy safe call, the ball did not beat R2 to the bag by any margin for a tag to get down. I amy look at a game replay tonight or tomorrow to see what STO showed. |
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I did see a weird mechanic from Montague later in the game. Ball goes down into right field corner. Gerald Laird is going all the way from first. Throw comes in to cutoff man in foul territory. It is a good relay to Matt Suzuki at home. Close play, but Laird slides in safe. I see Montague and he is about eight feet up the third base line making the call from right inside fair territory. That's a new one on me. |
I think what you saw was a 4 man rotation, R1 and a shot into right field. U1 goes out, R2 rotates toward 1b, U3 rotates to 2b, PU rotates up toward 3rd, I think...(trying to recall my 4 man). PU was coming back to take the play at the plate, in fair territory.
I'm sure someone will skewer me if I'm wrong. |
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Want to call games then don't make calls that look one way from a distance, take the easy route, call what you think will get you in the least trouble. This would be a much more tolerable practice if the Old Hats would admit to their need for money. They won't, they will perpetuate their financial lies and why not? Is it any different than the compromises they make in the officiating of the game the way they compromise their integrity? |
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Wow, kind of spooky that Carl Childress just mentioned yesterday one of my articles from seven years ago on this very topic.
http://baseball.officiating.com/x/article/5591 And I guess it has worked well for someone: http://forum.officiating.com/showpost.php?p=50527 |
We can argue all day and give our opinions about making the "expected call" and the virtues of doing so.
However, it will not change this FACT: this method of umpiring was taught at both umpire school and PBUC camp. These groups are, arguably, the top in top in the world of umpire training. They both teach it. It has nothing to do with "making the fans happy", etc. What it is, is a small part of "letting the players take care of things themselves," OR "calling the game the way BOTH teams expect the game to be called." When ball beats runner to the bag, fielder puts the glove with the ball down and the runner does nothing but slide directly into the bag...then the runner is going to be called out. Example: R1, steal. Throw from F2 beats R1 by a mile. F4 or F6 gloves the throw and puts the glove with ball down in front of second base well ahead of R1. F4 or F6 then pulls the tag up a little early (probably he doesn't wan't to get spiked). Nothing blatant...just enough for you the umpire to know there was no "actual" tag. R1 did nothing but slide directly into second base (basically giving himself up.) He did nothing (no fancy slide, etc.) to try to avoid the tag. What do you call? Some on this thread would call "safe". That is you, as umpire, saw there was no tag so you call him "safe". Many, including me, would call that the call of an amateur (or "inexperienced" umpire). (or call it a "MLB call" as I pointed out above...but with which Jim Porter disagreed.) I would call him "out". Many, including me, would call that a professional call. We talk about amateur umpires acting like "professionals" on the field. This, IMHO, is an example. (I'm not talking about acting like "professional umpires"...I'm talking about the broader concept of being "professional".) I've never had a manager/head coach (on the pro, college or varsity level) argue that a runner was "safe" on such a play. However, when I have taken the short end of the stick (once or twice) I have had a manager come screaming out of the dugout, "how can you make that %^&$ call the throw beat the runner and the tag was down!" |
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We're not talking about knockdown pitches, we're talking tag/no tag. I think they expect the ump to make the call. Quote:
It's our job to call the game according to the rules. Coaches job to teach the player good tagging techniques and the players job to execute. If you call an out in the above sitch then at least 2 people have failed to do their job. Quote:
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Don,
As you and I have for most of this thread...we'll just have disagree and leave it at that. |
Why we get bad names
:(
Four years ago I was working a girl’s seasonal final playoff for first place. I was “bumped” by the HC of the home team when I issued a warning to the pitcher for a quick pitch. I forfeited the game to the visiting team and called the police because the FD refused to when I requested assistance. The HC left and went home before the police arrived and after the investigation, the police told me that since I was able to stay on my feet, I would not be able to make any charges “stick” for assault. One of the umpires in my association heard about this and told everyone that it had to be my fault as the HC was a friend of his and he never would have touched anyone. This same umpire will argue with parents and make calls that will get him yelled at all the time. He will bad mouth his fellow umpires to any coach that has a complaint and will agree with any coach about any call. He has been around for a long time and cries constantly about not getting any of the “good” games. He even give your local “smithies” a bad name. |
you TRIED to press CHARGES for a BUMP?
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:mad: If I had not been fast on my feet and his asst coach had not grabbed him, I would have been seriously hurt. Where I grew up, you learned to be fast or accepted that you were going to get beat up all the time.
When I saw him coming, my reflexes kicked in and I was moving away when he "bumped" me. If I had not been moving, I would have been on the ground. I knew of him and he had the rep of being a hothead. |
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uh NO. he said there was an INVESTIGATION. and he obviuosly ASKED to press charges cause the POLICE told him it wouldnt WORK. i know the DIFF between BACKUP and CHARGES, FITTY |
The HC left and went home before the police arrived and after the investigation, the police told me that since I was able to stay on my feet, I would not be able to make any charges “stick” for assault.
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Now, if you can show us where the poster claims to have filed an assault charge or has clearly claimed that he was intending to file an assault charge, then you will be without error. Since you can't.......... |
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WOW Fitty, I guess your ARROGANCE wont let you let go. :rolleyes: I said (QUOTED for your TRIAL EVIDANCE, conselor): Quote:
HE WOULD have FILED had the COPS let him. It was his INTENT to do so I WAS comenting on. WHY DONT you address ISSUES instead of this "frustrated high school debate team looser" JUNK? do you UMPIRE or just COMB POSTS for tangents all day? :rolleyes: |
Cop is a douchebag. I dont know what state you're in but any contact of a game official in any sport in CT is a Felony period.
I'd press charges against him.:mad: |
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1) Trying to file charges is when you report a violation and the police are required to act on that report. If they do not, then you can take the charge to the appropriate prosecutor for action (warrant, search, arrest, etc). Talking to a police officer is nothing more than that, talking. 2) Police officers cannot keep you from filing a charge no matter how stupid, banal and idotic these were. Quote:
Now, if you can show us where the poster claims to have intended to file an assault charge or has clearly claimed that he was intending to file an assault charge, then you will be without error. Please print a log of your mind reading download for all to see. Since you can't.......... |
Okay, so he was interested in filing charges but the police persuaded him not to................
Was that so hard? Tim. |
They call him Mellow Yellow.
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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by lawump
When ball beats runner to the bag, fielder puts the glove with the ball down and the runner does nothing but slide directly into the bag...then the runner is going to be called out. Example: R1, steal. Throw from F2 beats R1 by a mile. F4 or F6 gloves the throw and puts the glove with ball down in front of second base well ahead of R1. F4 or F6 then pulls the tag up a little early (probably he doesn't wan't to get spiked). Nothing blatant...just enough for you the umpire to know there was no "actual" tag. R1 did nothing but slide directly into second base (basically giving himself up.) He did nothing (no fancy slide, etc.) to try to avoid the tag. What do you call? </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Quote:
Law School? |
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